Ford: Cut labor tab 30%

[user 62394]

Link is an article in today's Detroit News. It says that Ford's goal in their next UAW negotiation is to drop labor costs by 30% (this includes wages, pension, healthcare, etc.) so that they can be competitive with Asian competitors.



OK, I am labor law dumb. I've never been in a union. Can someone explain to me, after the UAW contract expires, why can't Ford (or GM or Chrysler) hire whoever they want to work at whatever wage they want to offer -- regardless of if they are a UAW member or not. Obviously, I doubt they can do it from a standpoint of you can't realistically replace your entire workforce, but why can't they say to their current employees "your contract is expired, you can continue to work here if you want, but this is what we will offer. Take it or leave it". I know this gets into Right to Work issues and such, but I have never understood it.



This may start a minor thread war (Admittedly, I kind of enjoy those. I like to debate ), but I don't understand how the wages got this far out of proportion. Seems to me this is what happens when there is not a free market (no, it's not free if you can only hire people from the union). And, yes, I know there is a history of pensions that has to be dealt with for the Domestic automakers.



Rocks

 

[Dreman]

The market still drives the system. If wages are too high, they have to cut costs somewhere else or price their products too high for the market. Do that too long, and customers will buy elsewhere. No products sold means no money to pay wages and closed plants.

 

[user 62394]

dreman,



I was referring to the labor market, not the market for the vehicles.



Rocks

 

[Thomas Rogers]

MTURocks said:

I don't understand how the wages got this far out of proportion.

I don't think the majority of the burden comes from current wage earners. No, I think the major burden comes from the retired folks receiving pensions and benefits that in sum total can no longer be afforded.



I heard a stat that said something like $2000 of each American car sold goes to paying pension and benefits of retirees. If true, that's simply too much.



Companies don't typically have "lock boxes" from which to pay their pension and benefits for retirees. Instead, most every large company in the past 50 years that has provided such pensions has done so assuming continued, modest growth in company sales. Put simply, they have set themselves up so that in order to fund the pension plans they need to not only survive but grow, either in size, and/or in profits, year after year.



Also, few companies expected run-away healthcare costs and the dramatic increase in the lifespan of their retirees.



Many have said that these "younger" companies (the import competitiors) will have the same problems in 20 or 30 years...but I don't think so. They will only have the same problems if they make the same mistakes, and I think the #1 mistake (which was still the right thing to do at the time) was to provide these costly, full pension plans with benefits.



TJR

 

[user 62394]

Ignore, I was going to aske someone a follow up question, but I answered it myself.



Rocks

 

[Johnny O]

Can someone explain to me, after the UAW contract expires, why can't Ford (or GM or Chrysler) hire whoever they want to work at whatever wage they want to offer -- regardless of if they are a UAW member or not.

Basically you CAN do that, however most car building jobs are a skilled-worker type of thing and not easily replaced. Also most people living around factories will be union supporters if not union members and it may be hard to find replacement workers. If you bring in replacements there tends to be intimidation and violence. Generally speaking, in order to succeed, unions have to eliminate competition. There are labor laws that the employer must recognize the rights of workers to bargain collectively if they have voted to certify a union to represent them. Not every union member is in love with their union but often their loyalty lies with the union and not the employer....and if they kill the golden goose, then it's the employer's fault anyway. I saw this first hand with the teachers' union at a college where I used to teach. They didn't give a rat's behind about educating people, the most important thing in their life was their union.

 

[KentheREALone Z]

Not an expert, but;

Many States, such as NJ, if a union is voted in, all affected employees must be in the union (NJEA is a prime example)

Right-to-work States, such as NC, employees have the choice if they want to join the union.

Deduction - Union based businesses often move to Right-to-work States. It may take them years to do.....

 

[Jeff C]

most car building jobs are a skilled-worker type of thing

:lol: I about spit water all over my computer monitor :lol:

 

[Robert Poole]

As a former automobile worker(Atlanta Assy Plant, FoMoCo). The work is skilled because it takes somebody several daysto several weeks (depending on the job) to learn to run a *job* That is just the mechanics of the job and run it being able to keep up with the line speed. It takes somebody a lot longer to learn the nuances of the job, to recognize any quality concerns with defective parts, ete,ete. That takes a lot longer to learn that part of the job. That is why Ford likes to have experienced workers on the line that are aware of what goes on around them and have an understanding of the job and how it interconnects with the assy of the vehicle. To be a line worker isn't for everyone, the job can be very monotonous and it is physically demanding. I have carpal tunnel syndrome in both hands and I am having rotator cup problems with 1 shoulder. They pay us well because of the abuse of the job that it does to the body. Don't get me wrong, there are what is called *easy* jobs, but they aren't prevalent in the Ford system.

 

[Gavin Allan]

Nothing is difficult to the man who doesn't have to do it.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Gavin,



You are right. Armchair quarterbacks are everywhere. They got all the answers while sitting in that comfy chair.





Tom

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

You are right. Armchair quarterbacks are everywhere. They got all the answers while sitting in that comfy chair.

It's that way with nearly every aspect of life.



While I'm not a Union supporter, I would not be one of the first to walk into a car assembly facility that just dumped it's union contract. Personally, while not really affraid of pro-union supporters, my family is much more important to me. Their safety and the security of my belongings is not worth breaking a picket line that dumping the union would create.



While the days of Union thugs leaving horse heads in bed with my wife may be pretty much over, there is still enough passion for unions that violence can still be a factor. Not saying that it's good or bad, that's just life.



Pass. Thanks. No Thanks.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

R Shek says:

While the days of Union thugs leaving horse heads in bed with my wife may be pretty much over, there is still enough passion for unions that violence can still be a factor. Not saying that it's good or bad, that's just life.

WHAT? "Not saying that it's good or bad..." C’mon! That is CLEARLY bad!



To accept violence and intimidation tactics as "just life" is craziness!



Any organization that uses such tactics to the point that the population begins to accept them should, IMHO, be outlawed.



I'm just responding to what R Shek said. If he is accurate, and such violence and intimidation practices are still commonplace than unions are a problem and/or the average union person on a picket line is clearly nothing more than a thug and a criminal (note my starting this sentence with the word IF).



Again, I am responding to the attitude that this is "just the way it is".



TJR

 

[Jeff C]

Nothing is difficult to the man who doesn't have to do it.

I've been working since I was 13. My most recent job/jobs was doing manual labor outside in 100+ degree southern weather with a bunch of illegals for 12+ hours a day, then going home and getting ready for my other job working retail for another 4-5 hours. Gotta love the 16-18 hour days, and the 100-110 hour work weeks (including weekends). You're right, I have no idea what hard work is.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Lets not forget, the voilence goes both way. How many men and women were threatened with their life of they continued being a union supporter?



How old are you Jeff? 22 or so?





Tom

 

[Jeff C]

21 next Monday.

 

[Tom Schindler]

OK. I was working 12 years when you started to work for a living.



There is a difference.





Tom

 

[Jeff C]

Yeah, Caymen, I remember how hard those people were working on the assembly line in L'ville.....

 

[Tom Schindler]

You are aware, that was during a shutdown...right?





Tom

 

[Mike Wilson]

As I said in a post, so many months ago, or has it been a few years ago, now (?),

let the Unions go "Belly-Up" in this country, and the rest of you who think that the

Unions are so bad, and those who think that your job, in no way, has anything to

do with a Union, watch how fast your employer comes up to you and says, "Well,

we compared your wage scale to G.M., Ford, and Chrysler", and you were making 7

dollars an hour, but now that the union is "Busted", and they were working for

$20.00 an hour, and your wage was based on a paltry 40% of that, and now the

defeated Ex-Union members are working for 10 dollars an hour, your new wage will

be 4 dollars an hour, take it or leave it, how would you feel? Hell, how could you make

it?

We're not all overpaid, lazy, good-for-nothin' bums like the media makes most Union

members out to be. I, and most people I work with, EARN our money with Blood,

Sweat and Tears, (and Carpal Tunnel Syndrome), and severe lower back pain, and hip, shoulder and neck pain, and a variety of other illnesses and disabilities caused from our

many dedicated years of service to a the Auto Industry.



Sleep on this, and think twice before you make another comment about this topic,

because it may come back to haunt you in the near future!



With Respect,...Tracnblack...