shawn stonbraker 2
Well-Known Member
Cindy Sheehan has finally shut up. She is now feeling jaded toward all of politics now, not just at Bush and the republicans. It's about time if you ask me.
She finally shut up.....
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Mark Grumpy
Well-Known Member
She finally said something I agree with though:
And she did. We will only remember him because of what she did, not for what he did.
She also said:
That appears to be about the truest thing she ever said.
And she did. We will only remember him because of what she did, not for what he did.
She also said:
That appears to be about the truest thing she ever said.
TomT
Well-Known Member
So sad but so true of our country.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I'm ready for a third political party. The Repubs and Demos have gotten too polarized on the loud talk, but too much alike on not doing the action.
I respect Cindy for having the courage to press her convictions.
I respect Cindy for having the courage to press her convictions.
I'm torn on this point. While I agree somewhat with your statement, I also have to disagree. If we spent our lives as a society of causes, thinking of nothing other than what we perceive to be wrong, we would be miserable. Are we supposed to camp outside someone who we don't agree with's house, and wait for the moment to make our point? Or do we live our lives, still holding on to what we believe in, and even sharing it at times, but taking time to be human.
I'm sorry, I choose to uphold my beliefs and values, but still enjoy life. She must be a very bitter person. I cannot even imaging having lunch with her. Do you think she has anything nice to say at all? I doubt it...
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Greg Bosin
Active Member
She said her son died for nothing which makes a point that I don't think was her intention. If we don't see it through they all died for nothing. The dilemma in my mind is that is there and end? I see the agreement last week with Iran and the U.S. as a positive step, but can we trust Iran to follow through? Is this just another war forever like Palestine/Israel ? :unsure:
user 62394
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You know, I don't have much respect for her. It is one thing to protest a war. I have no problem with that, but she went much further than that. She went to the point of insulting her own country. The proof is right in that article.
Great to see that you don't love the USA, Cindy. Guess those are your true colors. Yes, I don't think it is perfect (her statement about American Idol does ring true), but I still love it despite its flaws.
Again, showing the lack of allegience to the USA.
And let us not forget that she told Hardball that she would rather live under Hugo Chavez than GWB (this is in the video clip on the margin of the link above). I say go do it then Cindy.
I feel for the woman. Her son is dead, and that is tragic no matter how he died. But he died in service to his country as part of a VOLUNTEER army. Her son was an adult, and a soldier, and went where his country sent him. President Bush owed her nothing. By the way, he did meet her once, before she started her protest, but that apparently wasn't good enough. Frankly, he didn't even owe her that.
Rather than honor her son's sacrifice, she spit on it. I really think that her grief about her son's death made her bitter and irrational. I hope that she manages to find peace somehow.
I am sure many of you will feel I am being too harsh on her, and that is fine. I am sure some of you think she is a hero. You are entitled to that. But I for one wouldn't cross the street to shake her hand.
Rocks
Great to see that you don't love the USA, Cindy. Guess those are your true colors. Yes, I don't think it is perfect (her statement about American Idol does ring true), but I still love it despite its flaws.
Again, showing the lack of allegience to the USA.
And let us not forget that she told Hardball that she would rather live under Hugo Chavez than GWB (this is in the video clip on the margin of the link above). I say go do it then Cindy.
I feel for the woman. Her son is dead, and that is tragic no matter how he died. But he died in service to his country as part of a VOLUNTEER army. Her son was an adult, and a soldier, and went where his country sent him. President Bush owed her nothing. By the way, he did meet her once, before she started her protest, but that apparently wasn't good enough. Frankly, he didn't even owe her that.
Rather than honor her son's sacrifice, she spit on it. I really think that her grief about her son's death made her bitter and irrational. I hope that she manages to find peace somehow.
I am sure many of you will feel I am being too harsh on her, and that is fine. I am sure some of you think she is a hero. You are entitled to that. But I for one wouldn't cross the street to shake her hand.
Rocks
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shawn stonbraker 2
Well-Known Member
MTU, I agree. As a former Army member and as a Operation Desert Sheild/Storm veteran, nobody held a gun to my head and made me enlist. The key word is "Voluntary". She was probably one proud "momma" when her son enlisted. It's tragic that he gave the ultimate sacrifice one can give to thier country, but to do what she has done following is just WRONG. What did she expect to accomplish? Did she really think she was going to get them to end the war? Show some dignity to the other greiving families that have lost loved ones over there and make it seem like they died trying to make someone elses life better. I'm just glad she finally gave up and I hope this is the last I read about her. It's just sad at how badly she has represented her son after his death. Hell it took her over a year to even put a gravestone on her son's grave. She needs some mental help.:wacko:
Grumpy and TomT, I couldn't agree more.
I agree with (ya I know I am asking for it) her about not liking what this country has become to a point. Don't get me wrong, I love this country, but the politicians (both Democrat & Republican) have already sold it down the river. When you have both Japan & China being able to buy land and businesses here in this country and we cannot buy land over in China; there is something rotten in our government big time. When you have training camps in Mexico to train people on how to cross our borders, and yet Dog the Bounty Hunter is being taken back to Mexico for bringing a convicted rapist to justice on 85 counts, there is something wrong with our government. When you have Border Patrol put in jail for doing their job, there is something wrong with our government and justice system. When our government has basically turned its back on the Katrina victims, and yet help those in Florida we have a discriminatory government. I hope I have made my point. I am done. :blink:
I agree with (ya I know I am asking for it) her about not liking what this country has become to a point. Don't get me wrong, I love this country, but the politicians (both Democrat & Republican) have already sold it down the river. When you have both Japan & China being able to buy land and businesses here in this country and we cannot buy land over in China; there is something rotten in our government big time. When you have training camps in Mexico to train people on how to cross our borders, and yet Dog the Bounty Hunter is being taken back to Mexico for bringing a convicted rapist to justice on 85 counts, there is something wrong with our government. When you have Border Patrol put in jail for doing their job, there is something wrong with our government and justice system. When our government has basically turned its back on the Katrina victims, and yet help those in Florida we have a discriminatory government. I hope I have made my point. I am done. :blink:
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
Thing is, the far lefties are where the Dems get most of their money but if they vote that way all the time then it's a moot point because they won't be in office for long. Most of America is not on board with them.
In my heavily Democrat district the GOP incumbent lost to a Dem challenger who ran as being more conservative than she was on most issues.
In my heavily Democrat district the GOP incumbent lost to a Dem challenger who ran as being more conservative than she was on most issues.
Gypsy me
Well-Known Member
If it were not for her son enlisting and others like him as well..she may have not have had the right to speak up and out even if most didnt agree with her. She's confused and nothing she did could have brought him back.
Casualty of war whether it be from our side or the enemy side happens. War itself as I have said before is a necessary evil. How do all the families and friends of those killed in 9-11 feel about it? I believe most of them wanted justice. They are the reason he enlisted. How relaxed is this countries security been since 9-11? How many attacks on the US have we had since then that have been defused? (more than we will ever know) We are endanger every day, here in the US or over seas. If not for guys and gals like her son it would be a free for all for terrorist.
The mission is make that country a free government (not controlled by terrorist) and to kick butt and to make it clear the US will not back down and just let things happen. Her son died not by the enemies hand but by his own countries hand but it is something that just happened, a casualty of war. This is something that happens and he was fully aware of it when he enlisted.
Casualty of war whether it be from our side or the enemy side happens. War itself as I have said before is a necessary evil. How do all the families and friends of those killed in 9-11 feel about it? I believe most of them wanted justice. They are the reason he enlisted. How relaxed is this countries security been since 9-11? How many attacks on the US have we had since then that have been defused? (more than we will ever know) We are endanger every day, here in the US or over seas. If not for guys and gals like her son it would be a free for all for terrorist.
The mission is make that country a free government (not controlled by terrorist) and to kick butt and to make it clear the US will not back down and just let things happen. Her son died not by the enemies hand but by his own countries hand but it is something that just happened, a casualty of war. This is something that happens and he was fully aware of it when he enlisted.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Gypsy said:
Gypsy, so we went to war in Iraq to get justice for those killed in 9-11. Oh?
I missed that one. I thought it was to make sure Saddam didn't have WMDs.
Gypsy also said:
Oh, again, I thought the mission was to assure that Saddam didn't have WMDs, and the only way to do that was to overthrow him since he wasn't going to let us check willingly.
Making the country a free one that is not controlled by terrorists was never the mission. Overthrowing Saddam and helping set up a free, elected govt was the mission, and we were told that we would be "welcomed by the Iraqis people" as we carried out that mission. Kicking out the terrorists (or are they insurgents, or are they rebels now?) was a mission that came about out of circumstance.
About the only thing I agree with is that the only thing we have dones is shown that America will not back down and will go in and kick butt, ANYONE's butt, to prove a point and to make us look tough, especially if that butt is situated over oil. If that butt is in Korea, or Africa, then they aren't a good whipping boy!
Go ahead...the day after Memorial Day, tell me I am wrong, tell me I am unAmerican. Go ahead, I can take it...I have an uncle who's last name I share who died at the age of 20 on a beach in Normandy....he fought a real war, for real consequences.
TJR
Gypsy, so we went to war in Iraq to get justice for those killed in 9-11. Oh?
I missed that one. I thought it was to make sure Saddam didn't have WMDs.
Gypsy also said:
Oh, again, I thought the mission was to assure that Saddam didn't have WMDs, and the only way to do that was to overthrow him since he wasn't going to let us check willingly.
Making the country a free one that is not controlled by terrorists was never the mission. Overthrowing Saddam and helping set up a free, elected govt was the mission, and we were told that we would be "welcomed by the Iraqis people" as we carried out that mission. Kicking out the terrorists (or are they insurgents, or are they rebels now?) was a mission that came about out of circumstance.
About the only thing I agree with is that the only thing we have dones is shown that America will not back down and will go in and kick butt, ANYONE's butt, to prove a point and to make us look tough, especially if that butt is situated over oil. If that butt is in Korea, or Africa, then they aren't a good whipping boy!
Go ahead...the day after Memorial Day, tell me I am wrong, tell me I am unAmerican. Go ahead, I can take it...I have an uncle who's last name I share who died at the age of 20 on a beach in Normandy....he fought a real war, for real consequences.
TJR
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user 62394
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TJR,
I won't call you un-American, but you are wrong. Yes, the first step of the mission was to make sure there weren't WMD's (We did find some, by the way, and since Saddam wouldn't let anyone check, someone had to have enough of a pair to go in.). That mission is done.
Now that the old regime was gone, the next step was help the Iraqis set up their own government. That is the stage we are in now. This was part of the mission -- how many times did we hear the term "regime change" prior to the war. This was obviously part of ht mission. The going is much rougher than we thought it would be. I would love it to go smoothly too. But if we don't do this part of the job, there will be even more terrorists in Iraq than there were before.
And, yes, there were terrorists in Iraq prior to the war. They weren't involved in 9/11, but they were involved in plot to poison the British water system with Ricin (spelling?). And also, yes, Iraq did attack us. They fired at our jets patrolling the no-fly zone on nearly a weekly basis for years. And, Saddam tried to assissinate the first President Bush.
I guess it is two days after Memorial Day, but yes, you are wrong.
Rocks
PS -- By the way, I don't know about anyone else, but if I lost someone in the 9/11 attacks, I would want justice, on any and all terrorists. I don't care who they were -- the ones who planned 9/11, or the London bus bombings, or the train bombing in Spain, or attacks on our embassy, or the USS Cole, or the terrorists in Iraq, or . . .
I won't call you un-American, but you are wrong. Yes, the first step of the mission was to make sure there weren't WMD's (We did find some, by the way, and since Saddam wouldn't let anyone check, someone had to have enough of a pair to go in.). That mission is done.
Now that the old regime was gone, the next step was help the Iraqis set up their own government. That is the stage we are in now. This was part of the mission -- how many times did we hear the term "regime change" prior to the war. This was obviously part of ht mission. The going is much rougher than we thought it would be. I would love it to go smoothly too. But if we don't do this part of the job, there will be even more terrorists in Iraq than there were before.
And, yes, there were terrorists in Iraq prior to the war. They weren't involved in 9/11, but they were involved in plot to poison the British water system with Ricin (spelling?). And also, yes, Iraq did attack us. They fired at our jets patrolling the no-fly zone on nearly a weekly basis for years. And, Saddam tried to assissinate the first President Bush.
I guess it is two days after Memorial Day, but yes, you are wrong.
Rocks
PS -- By the way, I don't know about anyone else, but if I lost someone in the 9/11 attacks, I would want justice, on any and all terrorists. I don't care who they were -- the ones who planned 9/11, or the London bus bombings, or the train bombing in Spain, or attacks on our embassy, or the USS Cole, or the terrorists in Iraq, or . . .
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
My favorite part:
Have a cup of reality, Cindy.
Have a cup of reality, Cindy.
TJR,
The original plan of Iraq was called <font size=+5>O</font>peration <font size=+5>I</font>raqi <font size=+5>L</font>iberation, before it got changed to Operation Iraqi Freedom.
IMO, the real reason to invade Iraq was to finish Daddy's job. Sadaam just helped Jr. do is quicker with more support.
One recent episode of Penn & Teller Bullsh!t spoke about a Patriot. If you speak out against the government and stand up for what is right, you are a true Patriot. Anyone that follows the government blindly is doing more harm than good.
Tom
The original plan of Iraq was called <font size=+5>O</font>peration <font size=+5>I</font>raqi <font size=+5>L</font>iberation, before it got changed to Operation Iraqi Freedom.
IMO, the real reason to invade Iraq was to finish Daddy's job. Sadaam just helped Jr. do is quicker with more support.
One recent episode of Penn & Teller Bullsh!t spoke about a Patriot. If you speak out against the government and stand up for what is right, you are a true Patriot. Anyone that follows the government blindly is doing more harm than good.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
MTURocks says:
MTURocks then said:
Please note that I actually said above that part of the mission was to overthrow Saddam and set up a new government. I never said that wasn't part of the mission. What I said, was that we weren't supposed to be fighting terrorists there...we were supposed to be welcomed by the Iraqis as liberators. So how exactly was I "wrong" as you say?
"The going is rougher" than we thought it would be because we were arrogant and we entered into a war that we didn't have to enter into. We entered into a war that we were ill prepared to win...we were prepared to fight, but not win. If you want something to read, read anything you can about the "Just War Theory"...this one wasn't. Also, we entered into the war with a huge sense of fear...so afraid that to this day many still equate invading Iraq with the war on terror. They didn't start out the same...but we made them the same.
We didn't go to Iraq to fight terrorists. Yes, it seems that's what we are doing there now, but that was NEVER the mission, nor was the mission to "payback" those that did 9-11.
I'll stand by that...I'm not wrong.
TJR
MTURocks then said:
Please note that I actually said above that part of the mission was to overthrow Saddam and set up a new government. I never said that wasn't part of the mission. What I said, was that we weren't supposed to be fighting terrorists there...we were supposed to be welcomed by the Iraqis as liberators. So how exactly was I "wrong" as you say?
"The going is rougher" than we thought it would be because we were arrogant and we entered into a war that we didn't have to enter into. We entered into a war that we were ill prepared to win...we were prepared to fight, but not win. If you want something to read, read anything you can about the "Just War Theory"...this one wasn't. Also, we entered into the war with a huge sense of fear...so afraid that to this day many still equate invading Iraq with the war on terror. They didn't start out the same...but we made them the same.
We didn't go to Iraq to fight terrorists. Yes, it seems that's what we are doing there now, but that was NEVER the mission, nor was the mission to "payback" those that did 9-11.
I'll stand by that...I'm not wrong.
TJR
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user 62394
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Every administration for at least the last half century has had a plan to use the military to ensure that the US has access to middle east oil fields. Don't fool yourself into thinking this is unique to Bush.
Speaking out against the government is fine, but part of being a patriot is still loving your country despite its flaws. Many people, Sheehan included based on her own statements, make it clear that they do not love their country.
Rocks
Speaking out against the government is fine, but part of being a patriot is still loving your country despite its flaws. Many people, Sheehan included based on her own statements, make it clear that they do not love their country.
Rocks
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
MTURocks, I love this country...so much so that I wouldn't want her to invade another country for the purpose of preserving our oil interests, or to flex our muscles to the world beating up on an country because we are unable to strike directly against individuals that sucker-punched us. The country I love is much better than that.
TJR
TJR
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
U.S. Rep David Obey's famous exchange with an anti-war protester:
It's on YouTube and quite funny.
It's on YouTube and quite funny.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
MTURocks said:
Okay, and there is the problem.
Let's say YOU live in one of the richest countries in the world..rich in it's abundant natural resources that the advanced world wants.
Let's further assume that over 90% of your country lives in dire poverty. That you have little rights, and that you aren't free from the corruption and abuse of a dictorial government. Let's assume that this dictatorship has been funded, armed, and for the most part set up by another rich country, a rich, free country that is the #1 buyer of the natural resources your country sells.
If you haven't figured it out, that POOR country is any one of the many in the Middle East (like Iraq), and that country that is supporting them is America.
I ask you, assume you are one of the millions of poor in that first country...living in poverty, afraid of your govt, and watching America, the land of the free, prop up a dictator who abuses you, rapes and pillages your country and your people.
Would YOU be pissed off?
Do you think it would be easy for you to be "sold" on HATING America?
Do you think you would be WRONG in hating America?
TJR
Okay, and there is the problem.
Let's say YOU live in one of the richest countries in the world..rich in it's abundant natural resources that the advanced world wants.
Let's further assume that over 90% of your country lives in dire poverty. That you have little rights, and that you aren't free from the corruption and abuse of a dictorial government. Let's assume that this dictatorship has been funded, armed, and for the most part set up by another rich country, a rich, free country that is the #1 buyer of the natural resources your country sells.
If you haven't figured it out, that POOR country is any one of the many in the Middle East (like Iraq), and that country that is supporting them is America.
I ask you, assume you are one of the millions of poor in that first country...living in poverty, afraid of your govt, and watching America, the land of the free, prop up a dictator who abuses you, rapes and pillages your country and your people.
Would YOU be pissed off?
Do you think it would be easy for you to be "sold" on HATING America?
Do you think you would be WRONG in hating America?
TJR
