Upgrading the brake lines

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FlipTrac_511

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I read an article where poor brake feedback was the result of ordinary brake lines (fluid bottle-necking). Do any of you think that upgrading the brakelines (say, to braided stainless steel ones) on our Trac will improve the braking feedback? Aside from the rust on the rotor hubs, I've actually been impressed with the stock rotors and pads (given the complaints I've read around here). However, I've been annoyed by the total lack of feedback when easing the brakes to a stop. Is this indeed the result of the stock brake lines and not poor rotors and pads? I have an 04 which uses discs all around. Anybody else feel the same way about how the Trac slows to a stop?
 
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I can never get mine to stop as smoothly as i would like. On my sisters car i can grease it to a stop, but ST always grabs right before it completely comes to stop. I thought it was just my brakes that were grabby. The same thing happens to me if i press on the brakes kind of hard all of the sudden. The tires instantly lock up for a second and i can hear the screech. My sister always blames it on the fact that i was in a rear end accident (my fault) and i was scared of getting to close to cars causing me to slam on the brakes.
 
Braided line would help, as they won't flex like the rubber lines. But the lack of feedback is more or less a result of how the brake system is designed. I'm not aware of a set readily made, but any hot rod/offroad shop should be able to hook you up with a set.
 
Conrad, my brakes are stopping very smoothly. It's just that there is a moment during the brake pedal travel, where it doesn't seem like it's slowing down the Trac, prompting me to apply more pressure. It can be startling at times. Am I using the term "feedback" correctly here? Please correct me if I'm wrong.



Thanks Tiger, I like your new sigs by the way. You do them yourself?



Input still welcome...
 
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FlipTrac,

It sounds to me like you may have some problem with sticking calipers. If you have not had your brake fluid flushed and replaced with fresh fluid, you may have a pitted caliper bore that is causing the piston to stick. That may be the cause of your dead spot when you push the pedal and little or no braking occurs.



I have never heard of the brake lines "Bottle-necking". That would only occur if your lines were totally clogged with crud, or the steel line was dented, or badly kinked.



Braided stainless-steel brake hoses will improve brake response and feedback, however I don't think that is your problem. I would start by flushing all the brakes lines and installing fresh fluid. That will do two things. If you have a lot of crud in your brake lines you will see it when it comes out. That may be enough to eliminate the brake. Also, if you see the fluid in one brake line as being really bad looking, that will probably be where the caliper bore is the most corroded and most likely sticking.



...Rich
 
When I see the word "feedback" when it comes to driving, I'm taking it to mean that there is a sense of direct connection between you, the driver, and the road via the car. Specifically, brakes letting you feel the speed and momentum being scrubbed off rather then just knowing you're slowing down. Usually a very direct mechnical connection is the best way to get good feedback.



In this case, it seems you're talking about something different. You have to remember that the brake pedal is one end of a lever and has to work a piston which then works fluid, which goes through a proportioning block, then to the wheel cylinders, so if you only put a slight amount of pressure on the pedal, no much is actaully happening...the brake pads are pressing against the discs, as they are all the time, but simply not with enough force to do anything. How much pressure are you applying without it seeming like anythign is happening? Steel braided lines can still help, as they won't flex when fluid pressure, or respond to enviromental extremes.



Normally how I brake is with more initial force, then ease off slightly to come to a stop. The increased in initial pressure is to kill momentum...that is what gets you in trouble. Once you've killed momentum, speed is easy to get rid of. Braking in this manner is very controlled, and lacks that rear end squat at stop that you'll see many people exhibiting at stop lights and signs. The reason is they squat is they haven't stopped all of thier momentum, simply killed thier speed, and that momentum is slamming down and back.



BTW, yes, I created them myself from pictures of STs, one current and the Adrenalin concept. It took a while to make them, and them a bit longer to customize them, but it's different and shows the versatility of the ST.
 
Sounds like a lot of good info. Thanks!



Richard, I have 20K miles. My brake issues aside, am I due for a brake fluid change? Also, is a "pitted caliper bore" fixable, or requires replacement?



Tiger, thanks for elaborating. Your definition makes a lot of sense. Now, during suburban driving, I coast when nearing a stop so by the time I'm applying brakes, much of the forward momentum is gone, therefore I'm light on the pedal already. But per my predicament, sometimes I have to apply sudden pressure to slow to a stop. And as you described above, this is when I ease off slightly to avoid any rocking.

 
Flip Trac_511, Brake fluid should be changed every two to three years due to the fact that it absorb moisture. Since you have an '04 I don't think that you have reached that point yet nor do I feel that there is any pitting of your calipers. Steel braided lines ,although helping in braking, will not affect your problem in my opinion.
 
Flip other than spending a bunch of money on brake lines ( probably not worth it), You can yank every wheel, Clean and Re - lube all the caliper slides, and maybe depending on mileage, cut your front rotors and replace the front pads... Other than that, IT may just be what your used to from other cars/trucks, and just may be the way the Trac stops..

Todd Z
 
FlipTrac,

Flushing your brakes fluid is the cheapest and easiest way to start. Fluid is contaminated by the mosture in the atomoshere. If you live in a high humidity area or near the ocean, your brakes will absorb more moisture, and mosture containing salt, which will accellerate the corrosion process. Even if it has not been 2 years, it won't hurt and is not very expensive to have done if you don't want to do it yourself.



LIke I said, flushing the brake fluid may be enough to clear up your problem or point you in the right direction. And if nothing else, it will eliminate the brake fluid as being the problem.



I have not had any brake problem on either of the 2 Sport Trac's I have owned, but the number of people who have indicates that there are some gremlins in the system and I suspect they are caused by sticking calipers.



I have been doing my own brake work for about 40 years, and one of the tricks I use is to always loosen the brake bleeder valve before I push the pistons back into the caliper. By putting a hose on the bleed valve, and letting the fluid drain into a clear glass jar, I can see the condition of the fluid coming out of the caliper. Also, by loosening the bleed valve before pushing the piston back in, I can push the piston back fairly easily by hand (no C-clamp). This allows me to actually feel the pistons as they slide back into their bores in the caliper. If there is any pitting or corrossion along the piston or the piston bores, it will be felt as a rough spot or there will be some binding. That tells me immediately that there is a problem with that caliper and it needs to be rebuilt or replaced.



Now days, it's usually much more practical to just buy a remanufactured caliper at an auto parts store. Many now come with 50K mile to Lifttime warranties, and only cost $20-$40 each. When I had my old 1986 Dodge Caravan, I used to always just replace the calipers even if they were fine. With a 50K mile warranty, I just took the old ones in with my receipt and got new ones, for Free since my front brakes lasted between 40K-50K miles. I would just change them before I hit the 50K mile mark to get the free calipers.



...Rich







 
I hear you Todd. I really don't want to spend any more money on the Trac than I already have. From what I've read so far, new brake lines aren't the answer. I'm also reconsidering upgrading the rotors and pads with high-end aftermarket stuff due to financial constraints. Other than my rant above, the stock brakes have actually served me well, plus I rarely haul heavy bulk and I doubt I'll ever tow anything. So I may end up sticking to OEM parts even if it means sanding and painting the rotor hubs to get rid of the "Mandarin Gold" on them. When I get the chance I will inspect the brakes and if nothing's wrong then I'll be convinced that it is performing normally.
 
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Flip,



I think you should invest in some Speed Bleeders. All you have to do is crack the bleeder screw and start pumping the brakes. Just make sure your master cylinder stays full. When you get clean fluid out of your calipers, you are done. Just tighten the bleeder screw and you are done. I already installed them on my Trac and I have a set for my Escort GT brakes.





Tom
 
RUSSELL Speed Bleeder is what you want. Get the right ones for thr Trac since they are not universal but have different threads and length. I believe you can get them on EBAY. Do a Google search for an application guide with part numbers.
 
I got the ones for my Trac at Summit Racing. They were made by Russel products. The set for my Escort GT from Speedbleeder.com. The ones from Summit Racing is cheaper though.



If you want, I can pick you up a set at Summit and drop them in the mail for you. It should cost the Priority Mail shipping cost plus the price of the bleeders. You would have them by wednesday or thursday at the latest.



Just let me know.





Tom
 
Thanks for the info Mike. Thank you too, Caymen, for that very kind offer. I checked out Summit Racing's website and used the part# Mike provided above (link below). I'll probably end up buying them from there. Thanks again guys!
 
No problem. If you need something from Summit or need me to look at something for you, please do not hessitate to ask. I look for any excuse to go to Summit. I love that store.





Tom
 

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