Chief Illiniwek's Last Dance

[Jeffrey Travis]

Being formerCatholicIrishAmerican I will speak for all Irish Catholics - we have better things to do (yes, drinking is one of them) to worry about then a portrayal by a mascot.



I would say the larger majority actually revel in the name 'Fighting Irish.'



RUDY, RUDY, RUDY (yes, I know he was 'PolishAmerican') but what the hell.



Nelson - reread Bill V's post - I do not think he is 100% Native American, I believe he meant Irish.



Erin go braugh,



JT#14

 

[TomT]

Of course if we could get the Atlanta Braves fans to quit doing that damn tomahawk chant all the time, it would be a good thing.

 

[TrainTrac]

I'm not full-blooded, but have Cherokee ancestry. Good for you being 100%, but the US govt uses Native American, so that is the accepted term, until it is changed.

Nelson,



I don't think the gov't uses the term. I just finished filling out a Veteran's Administration survey, and it had a question asking about race. The box for this category was labeled "American Indian/Alaska Native".



I think the term "Native American" was created by certain elements interested in a more P.C. term than American Indian, and then adopted by the masses. Just like there have been several ways to refer to black people. This has evolved over time from African to Negro to Colored to Black; and now African-American is the P.C. term.



So why hasn't the NAACP changed it's name?:huh:



Or are they now representing all "people of color", and not just black folks?

 

[Tom Schindler]

One last thing--Caymen, Josey, and Nelson, as a full-blooded Native American, I don't care for your usage of the term "Native American" to refer to American Indians.

Indians come from India. Last time I checked, those that are native to North America are not from India.



I wonder what those that have, as you call them, American Indians, prefer to be called.

 

[Mark B]

I'm glad it was part of my Illinois experience but I'm not surprised or particularly upset to see the Chief go. A war-painted WASP kid dancing around is not the proudest of traditions.



Just let us keep the name. I won't wear a ball cap for the Overly-aggressive Native Americans of the Illini Confederation.

 

[Rick Kent]

Because that is how the Notre Dame mascot comes across to many Irish people, including myself. (My last name doesn't indicate it, but nearly half of my ancestry.)

One last thing--Caymen, Josey, and Nelson, as a full-blooded Native American, I don't care for your usage of the term "Native American" to refer to American Indians.

Bill V,



As a point of clarification and to understand where you are coming from, are you half Irish or full blooded American Indian? The 2 portions of your post seem to be contradictory.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

After reading his post again, I think he believes that anyone born in the US can state they are a "native" American. I can see that, and that is where we run into trouble labeling people. Even color (Black, white, red, yellow) isn't a good label, since there are many mixtures of races.



My opinion is different. I think anyone born in North or South America can claim to be an American. "American Indian" and "Native American" are currently used to describe descendants of the native race of people that inhibited the New World when it was discovered centuries ago. I won't put a date like 1492, since there is dispute over whether the Vikings or Columbus "discovered" America. In reality, the Asian ancestors of Native Americans discovered America when they crossed the ice bridge into North America.



If you really want to go back for generations and generations to find a label for yourself, then we all would be justified in calling ourselves African Americans. Dr Leakey has pretty much proven we all descend from the first humans that are originally found in Africa.

 

[Rick Kent]

Ah, semantics. I guess it was too early in the morning for me...



I am, by official recognition of the 1/2 German/100% Native American anti-defamation league, a



1/2 German Native American....

 

[Dre L]

While I agree that the PC BS is getting out of control...

I'm glad it was part of my Illinois experience but I'm not surprised or particularly upset to see the Chief go. A war-painted WASP kid dancing around is not the proudest of traditions.

That is a good point. I would imagine getting an original American, that was here before any europeans, to celebrate their history by coming out in authentic garb and performing a dance which was related to celebration or whoop-ass, while being a funny and crowd motivating character, would have been in better taste.



I don't think a chief is offensive as a character... the term mascot might be demeaning to anyone, while endearing to others. Calling him "Chief Losthisland" or "Redskin", yeah just a tad offensive. Maybe it's like a white guy in blackface, just bad taste.

 

[Jose Santana]

Nobleman is 100% correct

That is a good point. I would imagine getting an original American, that was here before any europeans, to celebrate their history by coming out in authentic garb and performing a dance which was related to celebration or whoop-ass, while being a funny and crowd motivating character, would have been in better taste.



I don't think a chief is offensive as a character... the term mascot might be demeaning to anyone, while endearing to others. Calling him "Chief Losthisland" or "Redskin", yeah just a tad offensive. Maybe it's like a white guy in blackface, just bad taste.

I was wondering if that silly mockery was a real Indian, but i guess it wasn't... Oh well:blink:



Joseymack

 

[Bill V]

Sorry I haven't responded to the questions--I've been away for a bit...



Yes, Nelson pretty much got it--I am (to my knowledge) 0% American Indian, and have never claimed to be. If you trace my ancestry back a few generations, and round to the nearest 1/8th, I'm roughly 3/8 Irish, 3/8 Dutch, 1/4 English, and 1/4 mix of darn near every other European country. However, I was born and raised in the United States, as were my parents. I'm not native to Ireland, or Holland, or England--in fact, I've never even visited any of those countries. I'm native to the United States--and thus, I'm truly a 100% Native American.



(Now, take my ancestry mix, and combine that with my 1/2 Italian, 1/2 Scandinavian wife, and our kids are truly a hodgepodge. )



I believe TrainTrac is correct regarding the US government's terminology--they've been using "American Indian", not "Native American" on anything I've seen. Whenever I'm asked to fill out a form that asks my race (be it a government form, employer, health care provider, or whatever), if they use the term "Native American", I check it, as it clearly applies to me. If they use the term "American Indian", I don't.



Caymen's point about the use of "Indian" in "American Indian" is quite valid. Which is part of the reason why, when referring to an individual, I far prefer to refer to their specific tribe ancestry--Sioux, Apache, Chippewa, etc. However, that obviously doesn't work when referring to those tribes cumulatively. In that case, I haven't heard of a more appropriate term being developed yet. I've heard "Tribal American" a time or two, and I think it's a decent possibility--but it's clearly not all that well adopted as of yet.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

All I know is that I am probably the least politically correct SOB out there.



Whenever someone talks about someone I don't know and says "they are Indian", I ask:

Do you mean the arrow kind or the dot kind?

And then the stares start like I put a turd in the bunch bowl or something?



My wife still says "Orientals" instead of "Asians", and the last time I corrected here she said:

Hey, it's not like I called them a chink or something.

As you can see, political correctness is not very high on the list of priorities at our house.



TJR