Coach, wrong ball video

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Tiger,



Most of your last post reads like rationalization for bad behavior on and off the field.



Why did they once call it "sportsman' like behavior" if it has no place in sports anymore, and the only thing that really matters is what is legal (by your assertion)?



You are fixated on what is legal, only, and the rest seems meaningless.



What is legal shouldn't be the litmus test for proper sports play, IMHO. That is where we disagree.



We can agree to disagree. I understand your point of view, I just disagree with it and feel it is ultimately leading to the demise of professional sports.



TJR
 
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We will see. There is an old saying: "There is no such thing as bad publicity!"

That might apply in some situations but not this one. This is a heinous crime that people will not forget. I also hear the state may charge him and he could get another 5 years through them. The only position he's going to be playing is "wide receiver". :)
 
Tiger - my biggest question is, do you have kids?



JT#14



p.s. The head slap and crack back block used to be legal in football until outlawed. If something provides a competitive advantage it will sooner or later be deemed against the rules.
 
Let's weigh in on another scenario I recently saw -



Team A has a runner on second, a ten run lead, bottom of 8. Catcher is only flashing one sign to the pitcher, the runner is blatantly relaying the sign to the batter. Catcher approaches the pitcher to determine which of multiple signs to go on so the runner on second cannot pick it up and relay it. Pitcher just wants the game to end, just wants one sign. Catcher tells runner on second if he keeps relaying signals, the batter is going to wear one. Catcher then tells the batter that is the guy on second relays a signal he is going to wear one. Batter at this point refuses to get in the box.



Take on this? Who is at fault, if anyone? Anything illegal?
 
Neither of those instances are comparable, because, as I said in my previous posts, a "fake" within a play is a completely different thing.



HUH? My examples were fakes within a play. The video that started this whole conversation was a fake within a play. How in the world can you state that as a reason for them not to be comparable???



Bill V, what if someone were to fake a serious injury (I dunno, maybe by sticking a leg of lamb shank through a tear in their pants), and say they got all theatrical about it, and fell down, and moaned, all while a play was commencing. Let's say further a bunch of the team members in on the trick helped orchestrate it by yelling, gasping, etc...

The answer to that one is easy--to fake an injury (without using illegal props as you suggested), the player would need to pretend to have reduced capacity. To do that, they would actually DIMINISH their ability to play the game--which the other team would likely then exploit to their advantage! So it actually works AGAINST the faking team--unless the fake convinces the officials that a foul was commited even though no such thing happened. All sports have rules against doing that, if it's caught--and if it's done well enough to not be caught, frankly, that's part of the game. Happens all the time in soccer, and in football (when a punter or kicker fakes being run into when no contact occurred), and in baseball (when a player claims to have been hit by a pitch that made no contact). It's part of the game--just like how almost all football coaches teach their linemen how to hold the defenders in a way where it's hidden from the officials.



Also, regarding the open wounds and the blood/AIDS--I believe all sports now have rules stopping play when blood appears (with the possible exception of boxing, where AIDS tests are required instead). Whether it's a fake or not, the play stops immediately--so the point and the question are moot.



So faking an injury is an illegal move, punishable by the ref...in soccer or in football. But faking something else that not actually part of the play (yeah, subjective I guess), whether it be the "wrong ball" or anything else anyone can possibly imagine, is legal.



That seems very "convenient" to me.

That's where you're getting lost in this--the whole "wrong ball" thing WAS PART OF THE PLAY.



If something provides a competitive advantage it will sooner or later be deemed against the rules.

WRONG! If that were true, it would be illegal for teams to practice, as practicing could give a team a competitive advantage. What you should have said is that if something provides an UNFAIR competitive advantage, it will sooner or later be deemed against the rules. Plays like this "wrong ball" play, or the Grand Illusion, or "The Play", or the "Music City Miracle", don't give either team an unfair advantage, as the opponent is completely free to do what they can within the rules to defend against them. That's why the rules allow these plays, despite the fact that they've been around for years.



Batter at this point refuses to get in the box.



Take on this? Who is at fault, if anyone? Anything illegal?

Depends on the league, and on what the umpire has actually witnessed/heard. If the umpire has actually heard the threat, in most amateur leagues, the catcher would be ejected, and the pitcher and bench would be warned against any such action. Again depending on the league and level, that warning may be that if the batter is thrown at, ejections may occur, or it may even be a threat of the game being declared a forfeit, with further league action likely. In the Majors, it likely results in the warning being given, with no ejections until a batter is actually hit or thrown at.



At any level, IMHO, the game situation is such that relaying signs is unsportsmanlik
 
Bill V, I think you are crossing some of my posts with others. When I said "within the play", or "part of the play" (I guess I might have said that), it was to discuss other examples that were ALSO part of the play...and NOT because I assumed the "WRONG BALL" tactic was done outside of the play.



I understand most all examples are of legal things done during a play.



I just wanted to be clear I WAS talking about the same thing.



As for faking an injury creating diminished capacity that the defense can exploit...the same thing is true of the "WRONG PLAY" stunt. The QB or whomever had the ball and ran down the line of scrimage saying "WRONG BALL COACH..." could have been tackled at any time...or so it seems to me.



TJR
 
Jeez--next thing you know, at the rate this is going, pretty soon TJR, MTURocks, and others will be complaining about Wesley Snipes putting a no-talent-looking preppy white boy ringer (Woody Harrelson) in the crowd to be his temate to hustle other basketball players in "White Men Can't Jump".



Actually, I do find that very unsportsman-like, just like the play in the video.



I stand by my analogy that this is the sporting equivalent of punching a guy in the groin in a fight.



Rocks
 
So what if it had really been the wrong ball, and some player from the other team blind sided the kid and broke his spine because he thought it was going to be a trick play? What happens to both kids? I mean, basically you're saying any time anyone has the ball, they're open to a hit because it might be live?



In intramural flag football here, there is a trick that people try to use by having only 5 guys in the huddle, then having a receiver step just onto the field of play from the sideline at the last second before the ball is snapped.



It is against the rules, and called "illegal deception". There are other things about FF that are different, though, for example, you can't fake a punt; that is also "illegal deception".
 
I stand by my analogy that this is the sporting equivalent of punching a guy in the groin in a fight.

Punching a guy in the groin in a fight is illegal--the referee will call it every time.



Actually, I do find that very unsportsman-like, just like the play in the video.

How was it unsportsmanlike? In the movie, Snipes challenges the opponents to a game of 2-on-2, and offers to let his opponents choose his teammate. If they're gullible enough to pick the plant, it's their issue, not Snipes'/Harrelson's.
 
Punching a guy in the groin in a fight is illegal--the referee will call it every time.



Not in a street fight, which is what I was referring to, but I'll still call you a dirty fighter.
 
Not in a street fight, which is what I was referring to, but I'll still call you a dirty fighter.

Sorry, I misunderstood. I thought you were talking about boxing.



And you're so right--when a woman being attacked in the street by an assailant strikes him in the groin in her effort to escape, it definitely qualifies as "dirty" fighting, and should be looked down upon. :wacko::huh:



My point--situation and perspective are critical when forming opinions on such things.
 
So what if it had really been the wrong ball, and some player from the other team blind sided the kid and broke his spine because he thought it was going to be a trick play? What happens to both kids? I mean, basically you're saying any time anyone has the ball, they're open to a hit because it might be live?

No, that's not at all what's being said.



If it had been the wrong ball, the center would have left the ball on the ground, stood up, and notified the officials. The officials would have blown the play dead, and swapped out the ball.



On the other hand, if it had been the wrong ball, and the center and quarterback had still done what was shown in this video, and the quarterback had been tackled by a defender who realized the play was live, it would have proven to be a valuable lesson to those players on the proper way to have play stopped for an issue. I used to see a similar situation happen all the time in youth basketball--the player was dribbling, and wanted to call a time out. Rather than picking up his dribble and then either signalling it or verbally requesting it, the player would try to signal it while still dribbling it. A defender would invariable realize what was happening, go in, steal the ball during the dribblers indecision, and get an easy layup. Is this "cheap", "dirty", or any of the other descriptors people have used in this thread? Heck no! The player would quickly learn that in order to call a timeout, you're best off stopping the dribble and then verbally requesting it. (You don't see it happen much more, since most leagues now allow the sideline coach to request the timeout.)



Returning to your question--I'm not at all saying that "anytime anyone has the ball, they're open to a hit because it might be live." I'm saying that anytime anyone has the ball and puts in in play in a legal manner, without the play being blown dead by the officials, they're open to a hit. This is why coaches at this level need to stress the fundamentals of the game--which not only include knowing how to block, throw, etc., but also knowing when a ball is and isn't live. If you don't know that fundamental, are on offense, and make a mistake, you learn it when you get tackled unexpectedly. If you don't know that fundamental, are on defense, and make a mistake, you learn it when the other team scores a touchdown unexpectedly.
 
Bill V said:
My point--situation and perspective are critical when forming opinions on such things.



I agree. That's what I was trying to say.



If the situation is a head fake, or some other deceptive type of play, then I am all for it.



But when it becomes theatrical, and disruptive, and calls for things outside of the normal play (like yelling to the coach...that's just not part of what is expected and normal), then it becomes a gag, a stunt, a gimmick.



I understand you and others are claiming the valuable, instructive nature of such plays. I just seriously doubt that was the intent for this play. If it was, then not only should revs have been warned, but the other coach...if the intent truly was for it to be constructive and educational.



TJR
 
But when it becomes theatrical, and disruptive, and calls for things outside of the normal play (like yelling to the coach...that's just not part of what is expected and normal), then it becomes a gag, a stunt, a gimmick.



I understand you and others are claiming the valuable, instructive nature of such plays. I just seriously doubt that was the intent for this play. If it was, then not only should revs have been warned, but the other coach...if the intent truly was for it to be constructive and educational.

No, its INTENT wasn't to be constructive/educational--it just ended up that way. The play was called because the coaching staff likely noticed that the defense wasn't paying attention, and exploited it. It's no different that a coach noticing that a defensive end is overpursuing plays going the other direction and calling a reverse because of that, or noticing that the defensive line is pursuing the quarterback at all costs and calling a screen pass to take advantage of that. If you're saying that other coach should have been warned--should the other coach also be warned when the offense is going to run a reverse or a screen in the situations I described? Of course not! It's all about exploiting the other team's weakness, which is the very heart of the strategy of the game, and is what this play did.
 
Bill,



Wow, you can come up with any one off situation can't you. Please, there is a big difference between a street or bar fight and some woman being attacked and you know it.
 
Yes, I know--that's why I said what I did after that. Maybe I shouldn't have left that with as little explanation as I did, as I can see how it could be misconstrued as trying to draw a greater parallel between them than I intended.



I also know guys who haven't evolved out of the stone age yet, who feel that if a woman went for the groin while being attacked, it's "fighting dirty", same as a street fight.



I also know LOTS of guys who feel that if some @sshole attacks you (which is the only way they'd ever get into a street or bar fight), then nothing's off limits to protect yourself, including the groin, eyes, whatever. There's no merit to getting into such a fight, and if forced into it, there's nothing off-limits when attempting to extricate yourself from the situation. I count myself among that group. Call me a "dirty fighter" if you want--But I believe it's clear that the one who is "dirty" is the one who forced the unwilling participant into the fight.



That's why I said, it's all a matter of situation and perspective.
 
Bill V said;
The play was called because the coaching staff likely noticed that the defense wasn't paying attention, and exploited it. It's no different that a coach noticing that a defensive end is overpursuing plays going the other direction and calling a reverse because of that...



So it is your contention that the play was called because the defense wasn't paying attention; the coach saw that, and called for a play in which the QB stops...and then STARTS TO YELL in order to grab EVERYONE's attention, and make it appear as if he is talking to the coach.



Ah, rrriiiiggghhht! (sarcasm).



I don't think so. This play wasn't called to exploit anything, other than the gullibility of the other team to be duped by some extraordinary (legal) play meant to deceive through theatrics. Bottom line, that's what was done...IMHO.



TJR
 
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