Dana 44 Swap

[H D]

I have the opportunity to buy a Dana 44 for around $4k. Its from a 2008 Jeep Unlimited Rubicon. My fiance's brother is upgrading to a Dana 60 on his front end. Thoughts? About how much more am I looking at spending to do the swap if I do buy this?

 

[H D]

Ok, just realized I can get a new one for around $2,500-3k. Need to figure out what his has that the ones I'm finding online do not.

 

[Jerry Gerner 2]

Not sure on the width of a wrangler axle setup working on a ST, I know chad installed a wagoneer axle on his. I would think the wrangler's would be too narrow.

 

[Bill Koonce]

My first question is why? Are you breaking axles a lot? What do you intend to do with it?



$4,000 + the cost of making it fit could very easily exceed the Blue Book value of the vehicle. I wouldn't go to the expense and trouble of making a swap that might not add any strength unless I had some other really good reason to do so.

 

[H D]

Its actually wider by about 2 inches.



Not breaking axles, yet. Just prefer a solid axle for trail riding.



Blue Book isn't important to me at all. I don't plan on selling. I'd also like to swap for a V8 eventually. It certainly isn't an investment and I don't have to worry what other people value it at, because I'm building the truck I want since Ford won't make it for me. Unless Jeep makes a 4 door truck sometime soon, this is where I have to start.



I won't be doing any swap at least until its paid off which won't be before the end of summer next year or a few months later.

 

[Jerry Gerner 2]

My bad I forgot they widened the newer wrangler. You're set, msn I can't wait to pay mine off so I can't get rid of the IFS. First truck for me with it and I'm not really a huge fan of it mainnly because I want lift without having to keep replacing parts and tires as well as being a PITA keeping it aligned. Didn't they switch back to the 5x5 or 5x5.5", you switcing the rear axles to match or just get adapters?

 

[H D]

Its just my opinion and I know some strongly disagree, but I think independent suspensions belong on cars. I'd prefer to avoid that discussion on here, though, since I'm absolutely set on doing a solid axle. Its not debatable to me.

I want lift without having to keep replacing parts and tires as well as being a PITA keeping it aligned

Exactly, Jerry gets it. I want true lift, so I need bigger tires. The stock suspension isn't very friendly to anything over 33s, so I must go to a solid axle. As mentioned, I don't want to be changing parts after every trip off road.



I'd like to run 37s, preferably surplus/used Hummer tires because they're so cheap and I could run those on-road and switch to MTs for offroad. I know about the hub conversion I'd have to do and all, but its all long-term. No way I'm going to get 37s on the stock IFS.

Didn't they switch back to the 5x5 or 5x5.5", you switcing the rear axles to match or just get adapters?

I think its 5x5, but I could be wrong. Don't remember right off. I'd just go with adapters on the rear until I can switch the rear axle to something stronger. Besides, if I get the aforementioned tires, I'd have to have adapters all the way around anyway.



I know I'm way ahead of myself on this and in way over my head, but that's why I ask. Aside from Chad, I have found zero information on solid axle swaps for STs. Pirate4x4 has a lot of good info on SAS, but I am so new to 4x4s that its still Greek to me. I'm working on it, though. I thought I'd see if I could get any insight on this forum. So, now you know my goals...aside from them being "impossible", does anyone have info that could point me in some direction?

 

[H D]

Also, the Sport Trac community is unique when talking about lift. When you talk about a lifted Sport Trac, all that really means is somebody did a body lift or shackles and TT, and slightly larger tires. That doesn't really refer to a lifted truck at all, IMO. These are, for the most part, cosmetic changes. So far, my off road capabilities are really only increased over a stock 4x4 ST by a change in tires. That's unacceptable to me.



The ST suits 99% of the people on this site just as it is, or with easy bolt on mods. That is not why I bought this vehicle, though. I bought it as the best starting point for what I want: a 4x4, shorter wheelbased, 4 door with a bed. I'd like something like an AEV Brute, but they're ugly, and they don't have 4 doors. So, I had to choose between the ST and the Colorado/Canyon. I hope I don't have to explain why I chose a ST. Plus, I'm a Ford guy.



Unfortunately, Ford has never made a "perfect" vehicle. There's always more power to be had, more traction to put down, lower track times to run, more ground clearance to gain, more obstacles to climb and more trouble to get into than comes from factory vehicles.



Unless you consider the Ford GT (but then again, I've seen one with twin turbos).:grin:

 

[Jerry Gerner 2]

Hugh, check out seriousexplorations.com or just google explorerforum.com and you'll find a ton of info on SAS, SOS, etc. For ST's, Rangers as well as Explorers. Also try therangerstation.com all great forums for lift and serious offroad enthusiast like you and I. I know there's a couple members from here on there, I'm not signed in yet but I frequently visit the sites for added info. I've been meaning to sign up there but not familair with their site setup, I like this one because it's easy to navigate thru and use.

 

[Chad Merry]

The rubicon axle is a great choice if have the funds to spend for it. This will require a little more difficult SAS then my leaf spring setup. As you will be building a linked style setup. This will require buying or building the long arms if you buy them I think they are about $1k, you can build them for about half of that. Then you will need to decide if you want to run coilovers, or coils and shocks. Coilovers will require a lot of fab work to make a brace that goes across the engine, and removing the ABS module to get clearance on the drivers side. And coilovers are not cheap either. So I would do the coils and shocks in lieu of coilover shocks which if I remember correctly the axle is already setup for this.



If you want to run 37s you will definitely need to buy chromo shafts and CTM u-joints, a lot of people say with the heavy weight of the Explorer based vehicles 37s are pushing it on a D44 axle, but that is another debate I have 35s and have hit several level 4 trails at moab no problem, and 37s only gain you about an extra inch of height, not worth it to me for the extra weight of the tire. You will then need gears again with 37s you will want a minimum of 4:88s, front and rear. Then you need a locker and my preference is a selectable locker, I love my ARB and will be putting another ARB in the rear axle someday. ( When my money starts producing again).



So in short with a base price of the axle at say 3k, you will spend an additional 3k before your done if you build it using the best parts. And that does not include your new wheels and tires.





Here is a link to my SAS build thread on another site. I will have another build thread probably after the winter when I do a linked setup on my ST. The leafs work well and are darn near bullet proof, but the linked setup will flex alot better.

 

[Bill Koonce]

Not breaking axles, yet. Just prefer a solid axle for trail riding.



Blue Book isn't important to me at all... ...I don't have to worry what other people value it at...



...until its paid off which won't be before the end of summer next year or a few months later.

I've never been much for that kind of thing, so you're well within your prerogative to say I "just don't get it", but to me it seems like you're trying to get rid of many of the things that make a Sport Trac unique, and replace them with what you can get factory installed and tested in a whole host of conventional pickup trucks. Wouldn't it be better to trade your ST in for a more appropriate platform for what you want to do? I'm sure that some prospective ST fan would be extremely grateful!



I don't think you got what I was trying to say when I mentioned the Blue Book. I don't mean to compare you to them, but there are people/cars known as "ricers", who inherit the old family economy sedan, spend obscene amounts of money on mostly cosmetic items for the car, and then go out as poseurs, pretending that their riced-out Camry is a racing car. The irony is that if they had simply spent that much money on a more appropriate platform, that they could have actually had what they wanted.



OTOH, since the bank technically still owns your ST, you really do have several good reasons not to throw lots of money into your ST. For example, it could get totaled, and you would be stuck with a lot of expensive parts with nothing to put them into. Or you could install the parts, have it totaled, and get a check for no more than the Blue Book value of the stock ST. Etc. etc. etc.



Let's say that you found a buyer who really wants a Sport Trac, settled your loan and had a nice chunk of change to use to go out and buy an old school, solid axle truck? You'd have tons of models to choose from (like one of those GMs with factory big blocks). Since you're planning on extensive mods, you can save a ton by buying an older model and gutting it. But if you choose carefully, you might find one that has most of the running gear that you want already installed. Then all you'd need to do is some freshening up...and everybody's happy!



Would this not work?

 

[Chad Merry]

IFS is not good for offroading period. You can do it and I did it alot, but the thought is always in the back of your mind. The 2 biggest issues are the CV axles, and the aluminum dana 35 front axle. I have seen them explode when under stress from offroading. However if your just doing some trails on the dirt or mud you will be fine, but if you want to do some rock crawling then the D44 is a no brainer for peace of mind. And it is rather obvious the benefits of a stronger axle to your friend who is putting a D60 under a light weight jeep



You can easily put 33's or 35's on your ST with a body lift and the TT,shackle lift and be very suprised of what you can do. I did it for a loong time, while also buying my parts for my SAS a little at a time. I now drive 1300 miles to go to Moab and feel confident on any trail we decide to tackle, and then drive my ST home.



Plus just the cool factor of having people that know about 4x4 vehicles or explorer based vehicles and they a solid axle under the front and they do a triple take to make sure they are seeing what they think they are.

 

[H D]

Jerry,

I've spent many hours on all of the sites you mention. I'm on explorerforum as OffTrac.



Chad,

Thanks for the info. From what you're saying, I'd definitely go with coils and shocks. I've already figured in new gears and lockers. Would 37s for street use even be too much as a road only tire? I live in a small town and drive less than 10 miles a day. It's not a big deal, just something I was tossing around in my head. Based on your recommendation, then, I'd definitely go with 35s for off road. Just wondering if 37s would be ok for street use since they can be gotten cheap. Otherwise, I'd just run 35 MTs year round.



I figured around $10k for the swap alone, not including wheels/tires. I'd love to stay in the price range you quote.



Bill,

I know the rice scene. I have a '69 Cougar and am no stranger to the stoplight 7k rpm revs of Civics wanting to "race". I'll admit that I am a bit offended if that's how I'm coming off here. I do have a friend that is an MD and has a '94 Integra with an IS 300 front end and 800+hp. His Vietnamese heritage is probably the main reason for starting with an Integra. Its done right, believe me, $14k in the engine alone. Not my thing, but they're certainly not all rice. And if he totals it, so what, he's an oncological surgeon.



If there's a pickup that you think would suit my needs better, I'd like to know which one you have in mind. Basically, I want the Sport Trac for its body (I'm shallow, I know) and wheelbase. I don't want its drivetrain or suspension. I don't want an old ugly truck just because it suits my off road needs. Although, I would like to have a '69 Bronco someday, just not today.



Since the bank does own my truck right now, I'm not spending money on it. I did the body lift for $80, shackles for $75, and tires for $600. If its totaled, I'm not really out of anything. Its actually valued over what I owe. I'll be alright. Big down payments and big monthly payments are my m.o. This will actually be the last vehicle I ever finance. The ST is my long term hunting/off road vehicle. I had to start somewhere.



I have my muscle car ('69 Cougar), I'm working on building my off road vehicle (Sport Trac), my fiance has the long haul and towing vehicle ('07 Z71 Tahoe) and we'll be buying an Escape or Taurus in the next few years for fuel efficiency. The ST is the only one not paid for and we'll be buying used and paying cash for the next vehicle. Then I'll hopefully get to start work on a newer Mustang or Cobra kit car.



But seriously, if you can think of another vehicle that will suit my needs and cost less, let me know. I'll sell the ST for a great deal to a member on here and go that route. 'Til then, this is the only route I see.

 

[H D]

Obviously, I think more like Chad than Bill.



I honestly do appreciate when people give warnings about wasting money, though, so I hope you understand that I do like to see posts like Bill's. I did ask for thoughts after all. I'd love to read more, for or against.



Thanks

 

[Bill Koonce]

I know the rice scene. I have a '69 Cougar and am no stranger to the stoplight 7k rpm revs of Civics wanting to "race". I'll admit that I am a bit offended if that's how I'm coming off here.

Not at all! My point was completely about the inefficiency of making large investments into poor starting points. How ricers behave on public roads is a completely different topic that I wouldn't touch here.

I do have a friend that is an MD and has a '94 Integra with an IS 300 front end and 800+hp. His Vietnamese heritage is probably the main reason for starting with an Integra. Its done right, believe me, $14k in the engine alone. Not my thing, but they're certainly not all rice. And if he totals it, so what, he's an oncological surgeon.

Yes, I'm aware that racism, ranging from "only buy a Japanese (brand) car; the Japanese build the best cars" (not knowing that the car is actually built in the Deep South), to the fanbois of all things Oriental. I'm also aware of some dim-witted rationalizations like "horses pulled wagons, therefore front wheel drive is the only correct way to build a car". On one hand, the USA is still a somewhat free country, so if that's what they want to do, that's their prerogative. OTOH I don't see any of these people winning awards for innovation or engineering excellence.

If there's a pickup that you think would suit my needs better, I'd like to know which one you have in mind. Basically, I want the Sport Trac for its body (I'm shallow, I know) and wheelbase. I don't want its drivetrain or suspension. I don't want an old ugly truck just because it suits my off road needs.

So you want the ST body for its looks. I can get behind that. Although I tend to be more utilitarian, I have gotten many compliments about the looks of my ST. I just didn't buy it for its looks, and when I see it parked next to my New Edge Mustang, it looks like a big white elephant to me...but that's my sense of style speaking, neither right nor wrong.

But seriously, if you can think of another vehicle that will suit my needs and cost less, let me know. I'll sell the ST for a great deal to a member on here and go that route. 'Til then, this is the only route I see.

It looks like you have what you want in the styling department, and that's important enough to you that you're willing to completely redo the undercart. Now that you've explained it to me, it makes perfect sense. However it does sting a bit coming on the heels of the cancellation of the Sport Trac as we know it. Don't let that stop you, though!



:haveabeer:

 

[Chad Merry]

So I have to ask Mustang Guy what are your thoughts on someone putting a 6-7 grand supercharger on a 2010 ST?



Hugh,

37's would be fine on the streets. I would run 37's on my truck but I dont want to buy new gears as my current 4:56 gears with those tires would kill my gas mileage. And the extra weight of 37's are just not worth it since it is my DD.

 

[Bill Koonce]

So I have to ask Mustang Guy what are your thoughts on someone putting a 6-7 grand supercharger on a 2010 ST?

Interesting question, especially since I wanted to do just that when I bought my ST. After spending many highway miles in the Mustang, using its downright startling acceleration from ~70MPH to get past the endless clots of SUV, minivan and pickup-driving left lane bandits, I wanted my ST to have that capability as well. And from the showroom the ST seemed to need big work in order to achieve that goal.



I still believe that it would take a lot of work, too much for me to consider reasonable, to get the ST (with the aerodynamics of a brick) to do 70 to 110 in less than 5". After getting reaccustomed to the dynamics of driving what still amounts to a pickup truck, I realized that it would require a major engineering effort to allow the ST to do it safely. The development costs would be so high that I would be saving money by renting planes and flying to my destinations, eliminating the need to do battle with these road hogs altogether.



If OTOH you're looking for more power at lower speeds...I still can't say that putting a blower on the 4.6 motor is the best option. I'd start by replacing the iron block 4.6 with an aluminum block 5.4 motor. This 4100 lb. vehicle needs to lose weight, especially up front, and it still will be heavy and clumsy enough to benefit most from a fat torque band than high-revving horsepower.



The reality is that the new 6R transmissions have virtually no aftermarket support, and the 6R60 that comes stock in the '07+ ST doesn't leave a lot of headroom with the stock 4.6 already. Any serious power increase would have to come at the peril of the drivetrain, or be accompanied by more and more parts made for the Expedition (like the 6R80 tranny). And because it's all computer controlled, it could become a nightmare to debug. OTOH development costs would be more reasonable, and once done much of the development costs could be made up by selling the kit to other ST owners.



Right now I'm satisfied 99% of the time with what can be had from opening up the intake and exhaust, and (mainly) Torrie's flash programs. I'm toying with the idea of trying nitrous oxide as my power adder. It's the least invasive power adder. I get to keep my existing mods, so they don't end up in a box for three years before I finally toss them out. It's ideal for my relatively short highway runs. And best of all, judicious use will eliminate the need to beef up the driveline.



Chad, your needs are probably totally different than mine. I take a 300 mile round trip to Chicago at least twice a month, and much longer ones are coming increasingly more often. I want safety first, reliability second, and then utility and comfort. Right now the mildly massaged N/A 4.6 is enough for my needs. I chose the 3V V-8 on purpose, and I believe that there's still plenty of N/A power to squeeze out of it if I want to.



What are your plans?

 

[Chad Merry]

No plans my truck is done with the exception of redoing my suspension to a linked setup. This thread is getting way off topic from Hugh's original question.

 

[Bill Koonce]

Yes, we have strayed. It's been fun though. :haveabeer:



I've been waiting for an excuse to do this: :back2topic:



I have a question about the later (2006/7+) Sport Trac front differentials. So far all I've found is that the pre-2000 Explorers used a Dana 35 "with some Dana 44 parts". The buzz implies that Ford switched to one of its own in-house differential designs, but nobody knows the details. One source says the new design uses a flipped (high pinion) rear end set up for reverse rotation.



Does anybody here know for sure what's being used?



I know that the rear end third member is essentially a 2002-2004 Mustang Cobra IRS tooling internally, although it looks like they started with a standard 8.8" stick axle third member. Could it be that the front diff. is little more than an '80s vintage Thunderbird 7.5" or 8.8" IRS design adapted for the Explorer?



The reason why I ask is a.) because I'm curious, and 2.) because Hugh might be better off with the stronger 8.8" unit, and have an easier install using a part that was taken from a Ford truck instead of a Jeep. There must be thousands of 8.8 take-offs (both front and back) of various widths to choose from in any given salvage yard. If that's not good enough, companies like Currie Enterprises will build one to spec for you.



I'm guessing that the Gen2 IFS/IRS are not as modular as their car cousins are (Cobra owners who drag race can literally drop in a stick axle, and vice versa). But I wouldn't dismiss it out of hand either. What if you could swap in front/rear 8.8" stick axles from an F truck with only minor modifications?

 

[H D]

Not sure yet. I'll look into it, though. Those kind of comments are why I started this thread. I like to look into all the options to try to avoid wasting money.



Admittedly, I know very little about suspensions; stock has been suitable in my other vehicles up to this point. Started rebuilding my Cougar at 14 with zero knowledge; I enjoy the learning process as much as the final product.



I know the goal, just not the exact path I'll take. Any information or questions brought up is more stuff I can look into and decide if it'll meet my goals. And I get to learn a lot about suspensions along the way. Thanks.