Education Comic
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
Love it! Thanks for posting!
I'll admit, I'm rather suprised, and, to a certain degree, impressed, that such a left-oriented cartoon as this one, being posted on this site, hasn't been ripped to shreds.
I'll admit, I'm rather suprised, and, to a certain degree, impressed, that such a left-oriented cartoon as this one, being posted on this site, hasn't been ripped to shreds.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I think this is the current left-orientated position: Race to the top and take lots and lots of standardized tests.
The right-oriented position is that trillions of tax dollars have been wasted on failing public schools and it is time to cut the funding, or else give the money to the parents and allow parents to choose where they send their kids instead of forcing them to be sent to the failing local public school.
(EDITED. I got my Right and my Left mixed up. Both sides are whacko, so I don't feel too bad.)
The right-oriented position is that trillions of tax dollars have been wasted on failing public schools and it is time to cut the funding, or else give the money to the parents and allow parents to choose where they send their kids instead of forcing them to be sent to the failing local public school.
(EDITED. I got my Right and my Left mixed up. Both sides are whacko, so I don't feel too bad.)
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
Gavin--Yes, your perception of the right-oriented position matches mine--lots and lots of standardized tests, and judge every kid's, every teacher's, and every school's successfulness off those tests, even if many of those tests are effectively tree-climbing tests for fish.
I don't agree on your assessment of the left-oriented position, though. Both left and right want the money better spent, but the right is far more the group who pushes for cutting funds. Remember, it's the conservatives whose standard pejorative for the opposition is "tax-and-spend liberal", not the other way around.
I don't agree on your assessment of the left-oriented position, though. Both left and right want the money better spent, but the right is far more the group who pushes for cutting funds. Remember, it's the conservatives whose standard pejorative for the opposition is "tax-and-spend liberal", not the other way around.
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
Standardized tests are a right-oriented position? When did that happen (and why are the biggest standardized tests run by the left-leaning College Board)?
Only the left-leaning schools worship the test scores, focusing only on "teaching to the test" in their efforts to avail themselves of federal money.
Only the left-leaning schools worship the test scores, focusing only on "teaching to the test" in their efforts to avail themselves of federal money.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
KL, are you kidding? Do you not recall all the Bush/Republican-pushed "No Child Left Behind" craze, forcing schools to 'teach to the test' simply to maintian funding? (I actually prefer to call it "No Child Gets Ahead", as it forced schools to concentrate only on the low learners to make sure they don't "fall behind", without spending any effort/time/dollars on the best and brightest.)
It's the right-leaning schools which tout things like how they rank in the state on standardized tests. It's the more left-leaning ones which decry those tests, touting their successes in so-called "soft skills", and how they feel many of those tests contain things like 'racial bias'. It's them who decry that, effectively, our students are fish, and they shouldn't be judged on tree-climbing tests. I understand your point about the College Board, but look at the standardized testing in the elementary and high schools--it's an entirely right-driven phenomena.
It's the right-leaning schools which tout things like how they rank in the state on standardized tests. It's the more left-leaning ones which decry those tests, touting their successes in so-called "soft skills", and how they feel many of those tests contain things like 'racial bias'. It's them who decry that, effectively, our students are fish, and they shouldn't be judged on tree-climbing tests. I understand your point about the College Board, but look at the standardized testing in the elementary and high schools--it's an entirely right-driven phenomena.
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
"Soft skills" are not what the education system is for: we're supposed to be learning facts and hone our ability to think freely, not being "taught" merely what to think and how to act. Back when school was about learning to to think, not learning what to think, we were #1. Curse John Dewey and his "pragmatism". I can hardly believe that there was a time when the average high school graduate working as a cashier wouldn't be flummoxed when given $20.01 for a $19.01 bill, helpless to process that without a computer and in disbelief when his computer tells him that the customer is owed an even dollar instead of 99 inconvenient cents.
NCLB was hardly a Bush/GOP-exclusive idea, and Bush/GOP aren't exactly what we'd call the paragon of right-wingers (If those like Limbaugh and Cruz are right wingers, then whatever term fits Bush has to involve some form of the word "centrist"). NCLB was certainly a bad idea, I won't contest that.
NCLB was hardly a Bush/GOP-exclusive idea, and Bush/GOP aren't exactly what we'd call the paragon of right-wingers (If those like Limbaugh and Cruz are right wingers, then whatever term fits Bush has to involve some form of the word "centrist"). NCLB was certainly a bad idea, I won't contest that.
I just typed my possibly very inflammatory thoughts about the qualifications of our teachers but deleted it with better judgment. My more politically correct evaluation:
There are many problems with the education system and blame is thrown everywhere except the teachers and the teaching factory majors in colleges that create educators that are experts in nothing except following mandated curriculums and adapting them to babysitting.
There are many problems with the education system and blame is thrown everywhere except the teachers and the teaching factory majors in colleges that create educators that are experts in nothing except following mandated curriculums and adapting them to babysitting.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
KL, when you say, "we're supposed to be learning facts and hone our ability to think freely", the "learning facts" portion is what the standardized tests are trying to measure, and the "hone our ability to think freely" is part of what I've heard many refer to as "soft skills", which typically isn't able to be measured/captured by standardized tests. So to a certain extent I think we're on the same page on this item.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
KL, you've got to be kidding, right??? Blaming all the problems of the education system on teachers is practically a cottage industry! I can't comprehend how you can say there isn't blame directed at them, when they're almost always the first target the public comes after!
And please don't blame the mandated curriculum on the teachers or their schools. As you pointed out yourself, it's being mandated to them! I've never met a single teacher who wouldn't prefer to teach their students practical knowledge and life skills, but instead are forced by state mandates to teach their kids how to pass a mandated test. And why wouldn't the teaching schools put a significant portion of their curriculum toward teaching how to teach to mandated tests--they KNOW that that's going to be the job of those future teachers when they reach the work force, because that's what the states are expecting from teachers!
I don't fully blame the teachers, or really the teachers at all, they're just doing the job as it's been described to them.
So, students wouldn't be able to pass standardized tests if they weren't taught the tests? I reject that idea and that is my problem with the way curriculum are built. I also disagree with colleges having majors that are specific to becoming teachers. I have friends from college that took classes specifically geared to becoming a teacher but they are not particularly intelligent in any field other than highly trained babysitters; Early Childhood Development was one such major for these students. They apply for a job at public schools and just fill in any position in any discipline that has an opening, not really being an expert in anything they are applying for.
I was bored to death through school and basically did no work at all, especially homework and yet I aced all of my tests and scored very highly on the standardized tests. I wasted money by signing up for SAT prep, which I never used and repeated the same for the GRE for grad school. I scored very high on both without studying for either. I just figured, either I'm smart or I'm not. No sense in trying to predict what will be on the test.
I think there are mathematically intelligent people and those students should be fostered in mathematics.
I think there are scientifically inclined people and they should be fostered in science.
There are people that could write a creative novel and they should be encouraged to read and write.
There are people that can create beautiful, meaningful art and we need them.
There are socially aware people and that should be encouraged.
Here's the one that I don't think many agree with me on. There are physically smart people and athletes have a special intelligence to control and shape their body in a way that other people do not have the intelligence or drive to do. Some people's brains do not work in a way that allows them to dodge a ball in gym class yet they can solve complex mathematical issues. Why is it assumed that the mathematical person is more intelligent than the athlete because their brain works in a different way? Instead, we pull dodge ball from gym class to protect the nerd yet force the athletic student to sit through geometry and call them unintelligent when they don't understand it.
The reason I think people don't agree with me on this, and my wife is even one of them, is that they see professional athletes making millions of dollars and do not think that is fair. I say it absolutely is and they are highly intelligent humans adding significant value to our culture and the market. They should be compensated as such, even if they can't solve calculus problems or perform surgery or write novels. They also should have been encouraged in school as physically intelligent students instead of failures at standardized tests.
Of course, this idea isn't specific to athletic students but all different types, which is captured by the cartoon and why I posted it.
So, students wouldn't be able to pass standardized tests if they weren't taught the tests? I reject that idea and that is my problem with the way curriculum are built. I also disagree with colleges having majors that are specific to becoming teachers. I have friends from college that took classes specifically geared to becoming a teacher but they are not particularly intelligent in any field other than highly trained babysitters; Early Childhood Development was one such major for these students. They apply for a job at public schools and just fill in any position in any discipline that has an opening, not really being an expert in anything they are applying for.
I was bored to death through school and basically did no work at all, especially homework and yet I aced all of my tests and scored very highly on the standardized tests. I wasted money by signing up for SAT prep, which I never used and repeated the same for the GRE for grad school. I scored very high on both without studying for either. I just figured, either I'm smart or I'm not. No sense in trying to predict what will be on the test.
I think there are mathematically intelligent people and those students should be fostered in mathematics.
I think there are scientifically inclined people and they should be fostered in science.
There are people that could write a creative novel and they should be encouraged to read and write.
There are people that can create beautiful, meaningful art and we need them.
There are socially aware people and that should be encouraged.
Here's the one that I don't think many agree with me on. There are physically smart people and athletes have a special intelligence to control and shape their body in a way that other people do not have the intelligence or drive to do. Some people's brains do not work in a way that allows them to dodge a ball in gym class yet they can solve complex mathematical issues. Why is it assumed that the mathematical person is more intelligent than the athlete because their brain works in a different way? Instead, we pull dodge ball from gym class to protect the nerd yet force the athletic student to sit through geometry and call them unintelligent when they don't understand it.
The reason I think people don't agree with me on this, and my wife is even one of them, is that they see professional athletes making millions of dollars and do not think that is fair. I say it absolutely is and they are highly intelligent humans adding significant value to our culture and the market. They should be compensated as such, even if they can't solve calculus problems or perform surgery or write novels. They also should have been encouraged in school as physically intelligent students instead of failures at standardized tests.
Of course, this idea isn't specific to athletic students but all different types, which is captured by the cartoon and why I posted it.
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Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
Though I'm all for people focusing on their aptitudes/interests, we definitely need a some basics that everyone has, though a standardized test is not the way to ensure that everyone can read, write, and calculate to at least a certain proficiency. That's where teachers who actually care and can present the techniques to a struggling student in a way such that he, if willing, understands; what teachers are supposed to do. That sort of "individualized teaching" is what standardized testing kills off.
Only until the athlete gets to college, then he gets sub rosa pay, is seen in class by his classmates only slightly more frequently than obama was at college, and winds up with the stereotypical "communication degree" yet cannot seem to string together a thought. :grin:
More seriously, IMO the pencil-limed nerd who can't do a single pushup is just as sad as the weight-room-dwelling jocks who can't solve an algebra problem to save their lives. Though, in their defense, now that math is taught almost exclusively with a calculator all are equal if given a math test with just a pencil and scrap paper with which to work :bwahaha:
Only until the athlete gets to college, then he gets sub rosa pay, is seen in class by his classmates only slightly more frequently than obama was at college, and winds up with the stereotypical "communication degree" yet cannot seem to string together a thought. :grin:
More seriously, IMO the pencil-limed nerd who can't do a single pushup is just as sad as the weight-room-dwelling jocks who can't solve an algebra problem to save their lives. Though, in their defense, now that math is taught almost exclusively with a calculator all are equal if given a math test with just a pencil and scrap paper with which to work :bwahaha:
I wouldn't suggest neglecting a minimum core but I believe that can be accomplished well before the age of 18. Probably somewhere between 8-12 years old.
It was really enlightening when I was in AP Calculus my senior year of high school (the only year offered in my school) and there was a Chinese student that moved into our school directly from his home country. He was a 13 year old freshman in my high school (should have been in 8th grade). He had never been to the U.S. previously but spoke fluent English as a second language and was one of his three known languages. He also had already had calculus and statistics but it was the highest level math class offered in our school. He taught us and knew it at least as well as our teacher (maybe better?). He admitted to being not particularly intelligent in his home country but rather average.
I have felt let down by public education ever since. When I have children, they will not attend the public schools. The schools where I now live in south Georgia are significantly worse than my supposed "good" public education in suburban Atlanta. It simply is not an option for my children.
It was really enlightening when I was in AP Calculus my senior year of high school (the only year offered in my school) and there was a Chinese student that moved into our school directly from his home country. He was a 13 year old freshman in my high school (should have been in 8th grade). He had never been to the U.S. previously but spoke fluent English as a second language and was one of his three known languages. He also had already had calculus and statistics but it was the highest level math class offered in our school. He taught us and knew it at least as well as our teacher (maybe better?). He admitted to being not particularly intelligent in his home country but rather average.
I have felt let down by public education ever since. When I have children, they will not attend the public schools. The schools where I now live in south Georgia are significantly worse than my supposed "good" public education in suburban Atlanta. It simply is not an option for my children.
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
When I learned that the schools of yesteryear taught young kids like advanced mathematics, the "classics" of literature, greek, latin, French I compared that to the sad excuse for an education that I was getting and wondered where we went wrong. ~100 years ago the raging, ironic Progressive Theodore Roosevelt advocated firearm training in public schools and today, as you mentioned, we can't have dodgeball. Pathetic.
...after I learned that preteens were taught how to navigate with a sextant-doing the math by hand-in the 1800s but the Naval Academy has, in modern times, discontinued that because it is "too hard", I think that our forefathers would consider us to be a bunch of idiots. :sad:
...after I learned that preteens were taught how to navigate with a sextant-doing the math by hand-in the 1800s but the Naval Academy has, in modern times, discontinued that because it is "too hard", I think that our forefathers would consider us to be a bunch of idiots. :sad:
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
They might have had first, ah, hand knowledge of it. Being as they were likely at boarding school and all...
Jackson Ellis
Active Member
Hugh - My senior year of high school - all the way back in '88 - we had an exchange student from what was then Yugoslavia. He was he same age as us, and he spoke English with an accent, but with no problems as far as searching for the right word or using the wrong verb tense. His only problems were hearing English with a southern accent, slang, and Imperial units in math and science classes.
He found our math (differential equations), science, lit, history, etc. easy. In math, he would skip over several steps that he did in his head. It was cool to watch. I don't remember if he was considered an excellent student in his country; I assume you have to be pretty good to get into the exchange program. But he was a cut-up, a troublemaker, and liked to chase girls, so math wasn't the first thing on his mind.
He found our math (differential equations), science, lit, history, etc. easy. In math, he would skip over several steps that he did in his head. It was cool to watch. I don't remember if he was considered an excellent student in his country; I assume you have to be pretty good to get into the exchange program. But he was a cut-up, a troublemaker, and liked to chase girls, so math wasn't the first thing on his mind.
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
Seems as though that describes a great many exchange students here in the US. It certainly fits the ones whom I encountered. Yet the rest of the world seems to think that Americans are boorish, uncivilized cavemen :rofl:
My favorite tale of those who learned English as a second language in foreign lands and who now reside in the US is how, due to the shoddy US education system, they've had to "dumb down" their speech to fit in, most notably by omitting the subjunctive tense and using the imperfect in its place as the masses consider "If I was a rich man" to be correct. Another would be the constant, inflexible use of "I" instead of "me", an ironic overcorrection. The obliteration of "whom" from the language is another.
Thanks lefties, your domination of the Education System has made even bottom-feeding third world cretins look like right geniuses compared to the average American. We're winning the race to the bottom.
I had a roommate in college from Ethiopia named Wondwossen; straight off the jet and in the country for the first time. His parents had been here for over ten years but they left him in Ethiopia as a child for his primary education because they considered it to be superior. He spoke Aramaic, another Ethiopian language I'm not familiar with, Italian, French and of course English; I may even have missed a language or two. He would get so upset because professors always made assumptions about him at the beginning of semesters and over emphasized their willingness to help him and to point out the tutoring available through the university. The kid was an absolute genius and finished his bachelors in three years and was applying to Harvard medicine when I last spoke with him.
He was very racist and it wasn't against white people. "African" American was a sore point with him. He considered the unrequested and unwarranted offers of help to be entirely because of his skin color.
My best friend is first generation Vietnamese and a resident surgeon working toward an oncological surgery fellowship. His experience was the exact opposite and everyone expected him to be very smart (and know karate, lol). He is fluent in neither English nor Vietnamese but you'd be very lucky to have him as your surgeon even though he does not write very well or know history past 1980s musical records. That gets back to my main point.
He was very racist and it wasn't against white people. "African" American was a sore point with him. He considered the unrequested and unwarranted offers of help to be entirely because of his skin color.
My best friend is first generation Vietnamese and a resident surgeon working toward an oncological surgery fellowship. His experience was the exact opposite and everyone expected him to be very smart (and know karate, lol). He is fluent in neither English nor Vietnamese but you'd be very lucky to have him as your surgeon even though he does not write very well or know history past 1980s musical records. That gets back to my main point.
