Ford Evos Concept
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Gull-wings are the "kiss of death" for most concept cars, IMHO.
Another bold move?
TJR
Another bold move?
TJR
I like it.
TJR,
Why are gull-wing doors the kiss of death? There have been very few American concept cars that ever made it to production with gull-wing doors and none of them failed because of the gull-wing doors?
Probably the most famous was the Delorean and it failed because of the heavy weight, wimpy engine, poor gas mileage and high production costs. I also think the stainless steel body skin was a bit too weird
Mercedes has made several gull-wing door vehicles, but they have always been limited production runs, but they were very popular....if you had the money.
....Rich
TJR,
Why are gull-wing doors the kiss of death? There have been very few American concept cars that ever made it to production with gull-wing doors and none of them failed because of the gull-wing doors?
Probably the most famous was the Delorean and it failed because of the heavy weight, wimpy engine, poor gas mileage and high production costs. I also think the stainless steel body skin was a bit too weird
Mercedes has made several gull-wing door vehicles, but they have always been limited production runs, but they were very popular....if you had the money.
....Rich
Andy Chase
Well-Known Member
I looked at the concept yesterday and there was a line from a Ford rep that said this will not make it to production at all. I guess I never understood doing a concept unless you plan on making the car. But maybe it's just so they can show off the technology. The 3 concept cars that I love from Ford were the GT-90, Mustang Mach III and the Tonka Truck.
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
All of which were due to US government intervention, similar to the Pontiac Fiero (Though GM was at least as responsible as the gov't for that one)
My thoughts on why gull-wing doors are a failure are summed up by the myriad of YouTube videos showing rather classless dudes with no sense of aesthetics putting them as well as "lambo doors" on their trashy, gaudy rides.
On the US Top Gear, host Adam Ferrara trashed gull-wing doors as being too outdated, prosaic, and eerily non-functional on the new SLS AMG. He remarked that, despite being of average height, when seated in the car he had great difficulty reaching the door to close it. Mercedes claimed that an automated door-closer would add over 60 pounds to the already too-heavy car, and it was later revealed (in response to Adam's retort) that adding a pull-strap to the door wasn't Mercedes-class design.
Here's a video of the above scenario:
<iframe width="420" height="315" src="http://www.youtube.com/embed/SOUI-F3Dn_E" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
RichardL,
Kiss of death may be overstating it, but there have been quite a few concepts that had gull-wings that never went anywhere and then those that did go into production but without the gull-wings...which in my opinion means the death of the concept.
I understand that a concept is just that, and that a concept car can have many things within it that never make it to production. However, gull-wings seem to be an often overused, IMHO "tired" concept car element that to me makes the concept come off as, well, "unlikely" as shown.
TJR
Kiss of death may be overstating it, but there have been quite a few concepts that had gull-wings that never went anywhere and then those that did go into production but without the gull-wings...which in my opinion means the death of the concept.
I understand that a concept is just that, and that a concept car can have many things within it that never make it to production. However, gull-wings seem to be an often overused, IMHO "tired" concept car element that to me makes the concept come off as, well, "unlikely" as shown.
TJR
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
On the new Ford itself, doesn't "EVOS" sound too close to EVO, which is already taken by Mitsubishi? Speaking of which, this Ford reminds me a bit (from the front) of the Mitsubishi Lancer Evo X.
The lines of the sides of the passenger cabin really remind me of another car, currentlyl in production, but I just can't put my finger on it.
I'm not really feeling the squared-off steering wheel, the weird divider between the driver and
"shotgun" positions, or the apparent lack of a real manual shifter. The exterior of the car doesn't look half bad to me--better than a flex or a chrome'd F150--but the interior which strikes me as a postmodern fusion of Frank Gehry & Fast and Furious, could be improved. "Sci-fi movie chic" is cool and all, but I want either utility or old school luxury in my interiors. Though depending on the other specs of the car, the interior wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, personally.
While seeing too many dudes try and put crappy gullwing kits on their Honda Civics (which are generally composed of parts from various other cars in various colors) has soured me towards them, they actually do look rather cool and functional on this ride.
The lines of the sides of the passenger cabin really remind me of another car, currentlyl in production, but I just can't put my finger on it.
I'm not really feeling the squared-off steering wheel, the weird divider between the driver and
"shotgun" positions, or the apparent lack of a real manual shifter. The exterior of the car doesn't look half bad to me--better than a flex or a chrome'd F150--but the interior which strikes me as a postmodern fusion of Frank Gehry & Fast and Furious, could be improved. "Sci-fi movie chic" is cool and all, but I want either utility or old school luxury in my interiors. Though depending on the other specs of the car, the interior wouldn't be a deal-breaker for me, personally.
While seeing too many dudes try and put crappy gullwing kits on their Honda Civics (which are generally composed of parts from various other cars in various colors) has soured me towards them, they actually do look rather cool and functional on this ride.
KL,
Yes, my point exactly...Most production cars that have gull-wing doors use them as more of a novelty then for any practical purpose. The most practical purpose for gull-wing doors is less clearance is needed between vehicles....That has never justified the added cost.
TJR,
Yes, many concept cars that make it to production will not have all the extra cost items that were included in the concept car. Things like gull-winged doors add a lot of flash to catch the viewers eye at the car shows, but rarely make it to the production cars....but most of the reasons are related to cost.
In some of the limited production, specialty vehicles, cost is less of an issue. In the case of the SLS AMG, Mercedes thought the extra 60 lbs to add some kind of electric door closer was too much added weight??? The car has over 500 HP, so I don't think the added 60 lbs was the real issue. Heck, most late model SUV's have electric rear hatch closers, so it can't be just weight or even cost
I think the notion that Lambo doors or gull-wing doors have been over done is not true either. I do think it is often dumb and poorly executed to put Lambos or gull wing doors on vehicles that were originally designed with conventional doors....maybe that's why some people think they are over-done??
The fact that concept cars are being designed with gull-wing doors just points to the fact that people still like them and it catches their attention....most would like to have a vehicle with gull-wing doors if they could afford one....even if they are a bit impractical.
The original Delorean was supposed to sell for $12K. For a number of reasons, Delorean had to modify the design to fit US standards, and then had to set up a plant in Ireland to make the cars...All which ballooned the cost and final sales price to near twice the original projected cost. The gull-wing doors had nothing to do with the failure of the company, so it was not the kiss of death.
....Rich
....Rich
Yes, my point exactly...Most production cars that have gull-wing doors use them as more of a novelty then for any practical purpose. The most practical purpose for gull-wing doors is less clearance is needed between vehicles....That has never justified the added cost.
TJR,
Yes, many concept cars that make it to production will not have all the extra cost items that were included in the concept car. Things like gull-winged doors add a lot of flash to catch the viewers eye at the car shows, but rarely make it to the production cars....but most of the reasons are related to cost.
In some of the limited production, specialty vehicles, cost is less of an issue. In the case of the SLS AMG, Mercedes thought the extra 60 lbs to add some kind of electric door closer was too much added weight??? The car has over 500 HP, so I don't think the added 60 lbs was the real issue. Heck, most late model SUV's have electric rear hatch closers, so it can't be just weight or even cost
I think the notion that Lambo doors or gull-wing doors have been over done is not true either. I do think it is often dumb and poorly executed to put Lambos or gull wing doors on vehicles that were originally designed with conventional doors....maybe that's why some people think they are over-done??
The fact that concept cars are being designed with gull-wing doors just points to the fact that people still like them and it catches their attention....most would like to have a vehicle with gull-wing doors if they could afford one....even if they are a bit impractical.
The original Delorean was supposed to sell for $12K. For a number of reasons, Delorean had to modify the design to fit US standards, and then had to set up a plant in Ireland to make the cars...All which ballooned the cost and final sales price to near twice the original projected cost. The gull-wing doors had nothing to do with the failure of the company, so it was not the kiss of death.
....Rich
....Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't want a vehicle with a gull-wing door for the reason you said... impractical.
Gull-wing is just a bling to gain attention, IMHO. Just some whiz-bang that is more whiz and less bang, again, IMHO.
I say overdone in concepts, and when used on concepts is just another thing that gets dropped, quickly that makes the production pale in comparison to the concept and leaves me as the consumer feeling cheated and baited/switched.
That's why I said "kiss of death". For me, when an automaker includes gull-wings in a concept it kills that concept...for me.
So, though I appreciate the discussion, for me, gull-wings on a concept ARE the kiss of death.
TJR
Gull-wing is just a bling to gain attention, IMHO. Just some whiz-bang that is more whiz and less bang, again, IMHO.
I say overdone in concepts, and when used on concepts is just another thing that gets dropped, quickly that makes the production pale in comparison to the concept and leaves me as the consumer feeling cheated and baited/switched.
That's why I said "kiss of death". For me, when an automaker includes gull-wings in a concept it kills that concept...for me.
So, though I appreciate the discussion, for me, gull-wings on a concept ARE the kiss of death.
TJR
I posted this because it is something different. These aren't like gull-wings you've seen before. For one, it's a four door and the rear doors also get the design.
Not defending or tearing apart the vehicle, myself. It's not something I'd likely ever be in the market for. Besides, it's not going to come to market anyway. Just thought it was something cool to look at.
Not defending or tearing apart the vehicle, myself. It's not something I'd likely ever be in the market for. Besides, it's not going to come to market anyway. Just thought it was something cool to look at.
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Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
When the car is already apparently too heavy to be a performance car worthy of its high price (As Top Gear presented and "tested" it to be), 60 lbs might be too much.
KL,
First of all I don't take anything those idiots on Top Gear say as being anything more than slapstick comedy. I mean really....who picks a Miata as a good substitute for pick up truck???
Also, only one guy drove the car and that is only his opinion...he is the same guy who always chooses a Fararri as the best car in the world, regardless of the competition..:bwahaha:
Second, if you watch the video on the "Worlds greatest dragrace", you will see that the Mercedes SLS AMG came in 3rd only about 2 tenths behind the winner....The top 7 cars came in within one second of the winner.
Third, people who buy cars like the SLS AMG want the gull wing doors with or without the electric door closers...and the additional 60 lbs would not make any difference. The people who buy cars like that would have no problem paying a small fortune for someone to add the electric openers if that was going to be a deal-breaker. Also people who buy Mercedes SLS AMG want all the creature comforts and the power to move them around...They don't buy them to race...Most of them will probably go into to someones collection of exotic cars and get driven once a year.
If Mercedes thought the car was too heavy, they would have lightened it before the first vehicle was ever sold...Many manufacturers hold on to some things to use as updates to later models. I would not be suprised if Mercedes added the electric closers as an option or perhaps standard equipment on some later models.
As I said earlier, most new SUV's have electric closer for the rear hatch and I doubt that they weigh anywhere near 60 lbs...probably only about 5 lbs each max. That would only increase the weight by about 10 lbs per vehicle for the 2 door SLS AMG. Even if the car is "Too heavy" for Tanner on Top Gear, it will still out perform most of the vehicles on the market today. Because one person does not like the car or the gull wing doors does not mean that others would not buy the car if they had the money.
Personally, I don't like the styling of the SLS AMG and the gull-wing doors seem to help it much. However on the Ford concept car, they gull-wing doors are one of the most unique features of the vehicle and actually accent the unique styling in a 4 door, rear seat car. I think that the reason this car will never make it to market (with gull-wing doors) is the lack of a "B" pillar which may be a weak point in a side impact? Remember, that concept vehicles do not have to meet any Federal standards or crash tests...they are just styling concepts, but they do give the car makers some direction to the public's taste in future styling trends.
...Rich
First of all I don't take anything those idiots on Top Gear say as being anything more than slapstick comedy. I mean really....who picks a Miata as a good substitute for pick up truck???
Also, only one guy drove the car and that is only his opinion...he is the same guy who always chooses a Fararri as the best car in the world, regardless of the competition..:bwahaha:
Second, if you watch the video on the "Worlds greatest dragrace", you will see that the Mercedes SLS AMG came in 3rd only about 2 tenths behind the winner....The top 7 cars came in within one second of the winner.
Third, people who buy cars like the SLS AMG want the gull wing doors with or without the electric door closers...and the additional 60 lbs would not make any difference. The people who buy cars like that would have no problem paying a small fortune for someone to add the electric openers if that was going to be a deal-breaker. Also people who buy Mercedes SLS AMG want all the creature comforts and the power to move them around...They don't buy them to race...Most of them will probably go into to someones collection of exotic cars and get driven once a year.
If Mercedes thought the car was too heavy, they would have lightened it before the first vehicle was ever sold...Many manufacturers hold on to some things to use as updates to later models. I would not be suprised if Mercedes added the electric closers as an option or perhaps standard equipment on some later models.
As I said earlier, most new SUV's have electric closer for the rear hatch and I doubt that they weigh anywhere near 60 lbs...probably only about 5 lbs each max. That would only increase the weight by about 10 lbs per vehicle for the 2 door SLS AMG. Even if the car is "Too heavy" for Tanner on Top Gear, it will still out perform most of the vehicles on the market today. Because one person does not like the car or the gull wing doors does not mean that others would not buy the car if they had the money.
Personally, I don't like the styling of the SLS AMG and the gull-wing doors seem to help it much. However on the Ford concept car, they gull-wing doors are one of the most unique features of the vehicle and actually accent the unique styling in a 4 door, rear seat car. I think that the reason this car will never make it to market (with gull-wing doors) is the lack of a "B" pillar which may be a weak point in a side impact? Remember, that concept vehicles do not have to meet any Federal standards or crash tests...they are just styling concepts, but they do give the car makers some direction to the public's taste in future styling trends.
...Rich
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
Not so, their anonymous professional race car driver who runs every car on the show through the standardized track in order to create a relative car "ranking" system also drove it. In this test, the AMG SMS was ranked 11th....behind a Cadillac station wagon, among others. That's a crime. Other testing by other groups at Nurburgring have produced similar results according to <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N%C3%BCrburgring_lap_times#Lap_times">this aggregated list</a>, helping to vindicate Top Gear's test.
Yet Mercedes claimed that an automated door closing system for the SLS AMG would weigh 60 lbs afawk.
Maybe. We know that there have been plenty of cars that were known to be too heavy in production but couldn't be lightened for various reasons, like the DeLorean. :cry:
KL,
The Caddy wagon also beat a Fararri, which is much lighter than the Caddy or the SLS AMG.
What's your point? We are talking about the use of gull-wing doors on concept cars that never make it to the street. It has nothing to do with performance.
My point was that with over 500 HP, the added 60 lbs for electric door closers would not have made that much difference, and the SLS AMG was never intended to be a race car. If they wanted a race car they would have made it lighter.
I just pointed out several examples of gull-wing doors that made it to the street ...so gull-wing doors is not the Kiss of Death as TJR claimed. In fact, most concept cars never make it to production with or without gull-wing doors.
...Rich
The Caddy wagon also beat a Fararri, which is much lighter than the Caddy or the SLS AMG.
What's your point? We are talking about the use of gull-wing doors on concept cars that never make it to the street. It has nothing to do with performance.
My point was that with over 500 HP, the added 60 lbs for electric door closers would not have made that much difference, and the SLS AMG was never intended to be a race car. If they wanted a race car they would have made it lighter.
I just pointed out several examples of gull-wing doors that made it to the street ...so gull-wing doors is not the Kiss of Death as TJR claimed. In fact, most concept cars never make it to production with or without gull-wing doors.
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Richard L,
I clarified, so please don't further misquote.
In my eyes and mind, when I see a concept car with gull wings, it is a kiss of death (for me) because it makes me dismiss and totally discount the concept car. If a concept is supposed to inspire interest and build a following so that a production version gets built and/or bought, well, for me, gull-wings are the kiss-of-death, because they do JUST THE OPPOSITE, for me.
So, my claim still stands. For me, gull-wing on a concept are the kiss of death...it kills the concept...for me.
TJR
I clarified, so please don't further misquote.
In my eyes and mind, when I see a concept car with gull wings, it is a kiss of death (for me) because it makes me dismiss and totally discount the concept car. If a concept is supposed to inspire interest and build a following so that a production version gets built and/or bought, well, for me, gull-wings are the kiss-of-death, because they do JUST THE OPPOSITE, for me.
So, my claim still stands. For me, gull-wing on a concept are the kiss of death...it kills the concept...for me.
TJR
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
It is obvious that the 60 lbs would make a difference as it is the sole reason that the door closer mechanism was not added. According to AutoWeek, the original door closing mechanism design would have added 90 lbs. The SLS AMG is also the 2011 Formula One pace car, which makes it technically a race car.
Moving on, the original point of my insertion of the commentary on a modern production car with gull wing doors was to demonstrate that even a venerated & prestigious car maker like Mercedes couldn't make them truly practical, giving my dislike of them more justification than just "they look ugly".
Though as Hugh points out, the gull-wings on this concept car are very different-looking than the traditional designs. Maybe Ford can succeed where DeLorian and Mercedes failed.
Jerry Gerner 2
Well-Known Member
I wanna see the crash test results and video. I don't think anyone would have a chance in that thing.
It looks really cool, I saw it somewhere online about two weeks ago .
It looks really cool, I saw it somewhere online about two weeks ago .
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KL,
Not even close??? Pace cars are chosen because they are race cars, but because they are street cars. Mecedes is a big sponsor of F1 racing and gets to choose which cars they use as a pace car and for 2011 the SLS AMG was the car since it was their newest release.
It is a high performance car but certainly not a race car. Even Mercedes knows that a car that heavy is not a race car, and knows they cannot fool anybody into thinking that it is a race car. Yes, it does have high speed capabilities and great handling and braking. Beut remember that F1 pace cars are not driving around the tracks at speeds any more than 75-80 MPH Max! People will drive their SLS AMG's faster on the Autobahns then the driver of the pace car. F1 uses a red light starting system and so the pace car is only on the track when there is accident or a dangerous condition exists, and all the racers slow down...much like a yellow flag caution in NASCAR. You could probably easily use a Sport Trac as a F1 pace car...:grin:
Mercedes chose not to include a door closer, for what ever reason, but I certainly don't think it was that big of a weight issue, regardless of what the the Auto media may claim that Mercedes told them.
I agree that gull-wing doors are not very practical, but much of that is because the auto makers have not come up with a cost effective design. They look cool and people want them, but the auto makers know they are impractical and expensive. I don't think Mercedes ever tried to make them practical on the SLS AMG..It was just part of the bling they wanted to add to the SLS AMG....They are different and make a very bold statment, which is all that Mercedes was trying to make.
The only cars that have used gull wing doors are limited edition specialty cars like the SLS AMG. I doubt that you or I will ever see gull-wing doors on any car that we buy as our daily driver because they are impractical, expensive, and probably pose a severe safety risk
Delorean tried it and his car company failed, but not because of the gull-wing doors. He failed because he could not build the car for the original $12K he said he would do and the end price was far more than most people wanted to pay for an over-weight, slow, gas hog at that time.
Jerry,
I agree with you. I don't think a 4 door, gull-wing door without a "B" pillar would ever pass a side impact crash test.....But damn, is sure does look good..:grin:
...Rich
Not even close??? Pace cars are chosen because they are race cars, but because they are street cars. Mecedes is a big sponsor of F1 racing and gets to choose which cars they use as a pace car and for 2011 the SLS AMG was the car since it was their newest release.
It is a high performance car but certainly not a race car. Even Mercedes knows that a car that heavy is not a race car, and knows they cannot fool anybody into thinking that it is a race car. Yes, it does have high speed capabilities and great handling and braking. Beut remember that F1 pace cars are not driving around the tracks at speeds any more than 75-80 MPH Max! People will drive their SLS AMG's faster on the Autobahns then the driver of the pace car. F1 uses a red light starting system and so the pace car is only on the track when there is accident or a dangerous condition exists, and all the racers slow down...much like a yellow flag caution in NASCAR. You could probably easily use a Sport Trac as a F1 pace car...:grin:
Mercedes chose not to include a door closer, for what ever reason, but I certainly don't think it was that big of a weight issue, regardless of what the the Auto media may claim that Mercedes told them.
I agree that gull-wing doors are not very practical, but much of that is because the auto makers have not come up with a cost effective design. They look cool and people want them, but the auto makers know they are impractical and expensive. I don't think Mercedes ever tried to make them practical on the SLS AMG..It was just part of the bling they wanted to add to the SLS AMG....They are different and make a very bold statment, which is all that Mercedes was trying to make.
The only cars that have used gull wing doors are limited edition specialty cars like the SLS AMG. I doubt that you or I will ever see gull-wing doors on any car that we buy as our daily driver because they are impractical, expensive, and probably pose a severe safety risk
Delorean tried it and his car company failed, but not because of the gull-wing doors. He failed because he could not build the car for the original $12K he said he would do and the end price was far more than most people wanted to pay for an over-weight, slow, gas hog at that time.
Jerry,
I agree with you. I don't think a 4 door, gull-wing door without a "B" pillar would ever pass a side impact crash test.....But damn, is sure does look good..:grin:
...Rich
Kevin Lang
Well-Known Member
So you see my point.
So you think the Auto Media is lying to us?
