Ford Evos Concept

[user 62851]

Sure looks cool. But questions I would ask are...



How heavy are the doors without an easy assist?

What is the height for the mirrors? For being parked in a parking garage.



And one last thing... First thing that popped in my head... That movie with Stalone and Snipes..

"Demolition Man"

 

[Richard L]

KL,

So you see my point.

No, I never see your point...because that's what I said from my first post. TJR said that "Gull-wing Doors" where the kiss of death for concept cars...and I disagree with his observation.

So you think the Auto Media is lying to us?

Yes, or perhaps they misquoted, or misinterpreted what Mercedes said. Perhaps Mercedes lied to them? Neither you nor I were present when the Auto Media was told about the weight issue with the gull-wing closers. I wish I had a dollar for everytime I've seen the Auto Media misquote or say something completely untrue about the Sport Trac, or had a Ford engineer say something that you know is not true but it makes Ford appear in a better light.



IMO Mercedes is never going to say that the SLS AMG is already too heavy. They may have said that door closers were not added because they would add too much excess weight to the car, and the Auto Media just ran with it.



I'm sure Mercedes engineers had a target weight for the car, with or without door closers, and they also had a targeted cost and the added cost could have been a more significant factor than the weight...maybe it was both cost and weight



Was it because the closers would be too heavy, not cost effective, or perhaps they ran out of time to introduce the car a specific event?? We don't know and no car maker like Mercedes or even Ford is going to say they screwed up. They are certainly not going to say the car is too heavy, or in the case of Mercedes, say the door closers were not cost effective on such an expensive car.



As I said earlier, if the demand for door closers was there, they would put them on and charge extra for them....and they still have that option open to do that in future models. The additional 60 or even 90 lbs would not matter to 99% of the drivers who could afford to buy the car....after all it is not a race car, was never intended to be a race car. Mercedes' are built to be luxurious high-speed Autobahn cruisers and a few extra pounds is not a critical issue.



....Rich

 

[Richard L]

Just some additional documention to support my position that one persons opinion is not always shared by everyone else.

What Edmunds Says

With its classic sports car proportions and upward-opening doors, the 2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG revives the spirit of the classic Mercedes 300SL sports car of the 1950s. But in terms of performance and comfort, it's as modern as can be.



Pros

Supercar performance; sharp handling; everyday functionality; exotic door design; seductive exhaust note.



Cons

Transmission response is a little slow for an exotic; short on passenger legroom; doors are tough to close.



Extracts from the Edmunds.com road test



Gullwing Doors Are Only the Beginning

By Karl Brauer, Editor at Large



Pros

Supercar performance, everyday functionality, sensual-yet-practical door design, seductive exhaust note.



Cons

Throttle response and transmission engagement somewhat inconsistent at low speeds, aggressive stability control in default setting.





It's all too easy to get caught up in the gullwing door feature of the new 2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG. In fact, this entire road test could focus on nothing more than the design, construction, use of and reaction to these exotic doors and be quite entertaining. But that would ignore the truly unique aspects of this Mercedes-Benz AMG model. Much better to simply state that the doors are a beautiful example of form following function, with no real issues regarding clearances or entry/exit difficulty, and move on to the good stuff.



With a horsepower rating of 563 and a curb weight just over 3,500 pounds, the 2011 Mercedes-Benz SLS AMG is carrying just over 6 pounds for each of those horses, a figure that puts the car in line with today's most capable exotic performance cars. Its performance figures confirm this, with a 0-60-mph time of 3.8 seconds (3.5 seconds with 1 foot of rollout as at a drag strip) and a quarter-mile run of 11.6 seconds at 122 mph

At 3500 lbs, 560+ HP, and 6 lbs per HP ratio, I would never consider the SLS AMG "Too Heavy" for a high performance, exotic street driven, sports car.



So again I state that weight was not the primary issue, and gull-wing doors are not the kiss of death, even though I like them, I don't think they are practical on most cars, with the exception of a few exotic sports cars. That's why many concept cars use gull-wing doors to catch that exotic look.



If TJR thinks it's the "Kiss of Death" it's because they rarely make it to production, except on the most exotic sports cars...But then most concept cars never make it to production anyway, and the few that do, are often void of all the exotic design touches that made them so appealing in the first place.



TJR is right to assume that the gull-wing doors on the Ford concept vehicle will never make it to production, but a similar vehicle based on the concept could make it to your dealers showroom minus the gull-wing doors and even some of the other more exotic design features. Of course, that is always disappointing since those are the exact features that we like about the concept car !!



...Rich



...Rich

 

[Kevin Lang]

Richard L, your posts are rife with assumptions. Once again, a debate with you comes down to facts against your assumptions, which you refuse to believe could possibly be false, and never have any actual facts provided to back up. Fallacious comparisons (eg:SUV trunk auto-close mechanism with an assumed weight vs Mercedes gull-wing door auto-close mechanism) don't count as proper corroboration.



There's irony aplenty when you state that you do not trust the veracity of the auto media, and then go and quote it to disjointedly back up your position. I say "disjointedly" as your post from Edmunds.com does not prove that gull-wing doors are not a kiss of death. As it so happens, the article you quoted assumes that people will get hung up on the gull-wing doors, and the article is trying to assert that we, the public, have to look past the gull-wing doors to properly evaluate the car.

Supercar performance, everyday functionality, sensual-yet-practical door design, seductive exhaust note.

The Mercedes does not have supercar performance, seeing as how multiple sources have beaten it in controlled tests with non-supercars. This quoted statement also begs the question of how these categories are defined. For starters, how can a 2 seater $200k+ car with gull-wing doors have "everyday functionality"?



Richard L, I happened to finally see an episode of the awful show Modern Family last night, wherein several of the main characters had a pathological need to claim that they were always right (though they supplied evidence). Reading this thread I think of you in context of that episode. Arguing with you can never go anywhere (per Aristotle), with your intransigence on your assumptions and tenuous grasp of the English language and logic, but it keeps the forum alive. The off-topic forum has been dead for a while now, but you're the go-to guy to resuscitate it, and so I do what I can to help you out with that :bwahaha:



(Are you sure you're not fanatically defending Mercedes because you own one? That happened once before, so I wonder...) :banana:

 

[Richard L]

KL,

The Mercedes does not have supercar performance, seeing as how multiple sources have beaten it in controlled tests with non-supercars.

I did not classify it as a super car, but many others have...ie": Edmunds, as well as the Worlds Greatest Drag Race video that was posted here where the SLS AMG came in 4th. Five other cars came in behind it. But that was just one test.



It's obvious that your definition of "Super Car" differs from the rest of the world. No car is perfect and because someone does not like it, or some lesser car can beat it in some tests does not dimish it's status as a Super Car.



I never claimed that the SLS AMG was the fastest, best handling, flawless car on the market....My only claim was that Gull-wing doors on the Ford concept car did not mean it was the Kiss of Death....Even TJR admitted that it was an eggageration.



I poined out that several cars with gull-wing doors were put in production in the past, to include Mercedes 300SL and the DeLorean....I know both cars had far less HP than the SLS AMG, but probably weight a lot more. (If you want to look up the weights of each vehicle, be my guest)



I am not arguing that Mercedes said that they did not want to add 60 lbs of door closer hardware to the vehicle, but I don't believe the claim that anyone from Mercedes would say "The car was already over weight" or that the added 60 lbs would make that much of a difference.



In fact, the Nissan GT-R that won the Worlds Greatest Drag Race weighs 3829 lbs, the 2nd place Ferrari 458 Italia weighs 3935, and the 3rd place Audi R8-GT weighs 3605.



If you took the time to read the road test at Edmunds.com you would have seen that the writer indicated that the traction/stability control system was too overpowering and made the SLS AMG feel heavy and sluggish. However when the traction/stability control was turned off the car exhibited a much lighter feel and was much more responsive. So, perhaps the guys you claim to have test drove the SLS AMG where not pleased with the performance with the traction/stability control system active???



Do some people want the SLS AMG to have more HP??...Yes. Do some people want the SLS AMG to weigh less??...Yes. Do some people want the SLS AMG to have door closers?? Yes. Did Mercedes make a mistake by not adding door closers???...Yes.



But, I suspect that the people who spent $200K for their SLS AMG would probably say they are very happy with the way the car is and few would want any of those changes.



But this debate is not if the SLS AMG is the fastest or best car out there...It's just one of the top 10 super cars you can buy new today if you have the money. And since it is always being compared to other Super Cars, I think the term is justified



The SLS AMG just happens to have Gull-wing doors and some people do not like them without an electric closer. Did Mercedes screw up by not putting in an electric closer, or at least offer it as an option??? I think so. IMO the excuse that they did not want to add the extra 60 lbs does not sound valid (but they probably did say that). I do not believe that any Mercedes rep would say the SLS AMG was already too heavy...I suspect that was the impression of the Auto media who drove the cars with the traction/stability control on...as previously explained.



As for me sticking up for Mercedes because I own one??? Probably true, but I could also say that you are prejudice against Mercedes because you DON'T own one !!! Most people who buy Mercedes and BMW's will quickly tell you that they are probably the best vehicles they have ever owned.



They are not always the fastest, not always the best handling, not always the most powerful, not always the lightest, far from the cheapest, and maintenance is expensive, but they seem to have the perfect balance of performance, reliability, durability, comfort, handling, braking, luxury and timeless stylng. It's the best combination of compromises of all those features. It's rarely the best at anyone thing, but does more things better than than most other cars.



...Rich

 

[H D]

Wow!











































































These posts have been getting progressively longer.

 

[H D]

At any rate, this is a good looking concept.

 

[Richard L]

Hugh,

I agree...That is a good looking car. It actually appears to be a toned down version of the concept car that started this thread without the gull-wing doors and all the execess humps and bump contours to the body. It's also a 2 door, but I could see enough similiarity that this could be a marketable street version of the other concept car...sans the gull-wing doors. Heck it even appears to be painted in the same color...:grin:



KL,

Before you accuse me claiming I am always right, why don't you post positive evidence that I am wrong??? I have read every online Test Drive review of the SLS AMG and nobody has ever mentioned that the car was too heavy or that anyone from Mercedes said it was too heavy. Only one mentioned that the car felt heavy and non-responsive, but only while the over-compensating traction/stability control was active. Also the car has a 43/57 Front to Rear weight bias which probably accounts for its excessive oversteer and why the traction/stability control system is over compensating to keep the rear from swapping ends. Most of the drivers loved the handling even with the over-steer since they liked to be able to kick there rear out when ever they wanted to.



I never claimed I was always right. When someone proved me wrong, I admitted it here several times, so I have no shame in admitting when I am wrong. But I will not admit I am wrong without someone proving I am wrong.



So, if you want to "Prove" me wrong, post extracts from reviews or links to reviews that make all the claims that you are saying. Show me where a Mercedes spokesman said the car was already too heavy to add door closers. Show me all the tests were lesser cars beat the SLS AMG. Show me all the road test reviews that claimed the car was too heavy. And there will have to be more than one since that would constitute only one reviewers opinion.



It's put up or shut up time KL



...Rich

 

[H D]

It actually appears to be a toned down version of the concept car that started this thread

It appears nothing...Look closely. That is the same exact car. There are designs in this car that I've never seen before. That's why I bothered to post it. Didn't really intend for a discussion on the practicality and opinions on gull-wing doors but what can ya do; it's the off-topic board for a reason.



Yeah, it looks like a coupe all buttoned up. Open the doors and this is a whole 'nother kinda animal.

When someone proved me wrong, I admitted it here several times, so I have no shame in admitting when I am wrong. But I will not admit I am wrong without someone proving I am wrong.

I'll wait patiently...:grin:

 

[Richard L]

Hugh,

Yes, it is the same car design. I said it was a toned-down version because the deep sculpturing on thenose of the gull-wing car is not as pronounced in the second car....It may just be the angle and the light, but almost everything else is very similar except the doors. And I do like it ! I guess that shows that even if the gull wing doors don't make it to production, they are not the "Kiss of Death" for a concept car....they can make it without the gull wing doors and it still looks good. :grin:



Sorry. I did not intend to highjack your thread. KL likes to try to say I'm wrong but never has any proof so when he can't prove I'm wrong he usually just shuts up and goes away after a few posts. I think he feels he is making me look bad, but I think it only makes him look childish.



I'm betting he can't find a single link to a test drive review that indicates the SLS AMG is too heavy, much less a Mercedes Rep admitting the car is already too heavy.



...Rich

 

[H D]

It may just be the angle and the light, but almost everything else is very similar except the doors.

Sorry, but this is the same exact car. The doors are exactly the same. There is no second car and both pictures are of the same car...with gull-wing doors...in both pictures.



Here, maybe this illustrates it better.

 

[Robert Thomas]

Open the door in a 30 mph wind and you door would be gone.



Go into the Tampa airport short term parking and you wouldn't be able to get out because of the short ceiling.



Sunglasses would fall out of the door pocket when you open it.



Can't carry a kayak on the roof.



Car would get drenched in the rain.



Cops could see all your beer bottles when you get out after being stopped.



Good idea gone bad.

 

[H D]

:bwahaha:



Well, now that it's been put that way, this is definitely not the car for me.

 

[Richard L]

Hugh,

Wow, That is amazing !! Yes it is indeed the same car. With the doors closed you would never suspect that it had gull-wing doors, even in the side view. Certainly that car could easily be converted to a 2 door coupe with conventional doors, and be put on the market tomorrow. It looks very different with the doors opened.



Great post!



...Rich

 

[H D]

Anybody see what they were testing the market for with this concept? I see it now.