TomT
Well-Known Member
We socked it to the Europeans today. An American won the Tour de France (Floyd Landis) and an American won the British Open (Tiger).
Great day for Americans
- Thread starter TomT
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WOW, that's Awesome!!! 
Eldon Webb
Active Member
Go USA.
Cory Richards
Active Member
Haha, Lance is done and other countries still don't have a chance.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Go Mennonites!....Floyd Landis is a Mennonite!
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Correction: Floyd Landis WAS a Mennonite. He left the faith several years ago. (Hence his ability to ride in the tour without wearing full-length pants. Shorts are a definite no-no in the Mennonite faith.)
I figured I better straighten that out--seeing that none of them will be on this site to do it...
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Deleted deleted
Well-Known Member
I wouldn't consider winning the British open as much a slap to Europeans as another American winning the Tour de France. The English have been out long-time allies, we share a common language, etc.
The French are another story all together. That one is sweet!
The French are another story all together. That one is sweet!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Bill V said:
Oh, Bill, do you know that for a fact? Are you so sure he has left the faith and is no longer a Mennonite?
I ask, because although you may be right, and he may have left his faith, there is absolutely no reason he can't wear his tight shorts, ride in the Tour, and own and operate a computer AND be a faithful Mennonite.
P.S. I am a Mennonite.
I think you are confusing Amish with Mennonite. Both are Anabaptist religions, but they aren't the same, and there are varying levels of "modernism" in both.
TJR
Oh, Bill, do you know that for a fact? Are you so sure he has left the faith and is no longer a Mennonite?
I ask, because although you may be right, and he may have left his faith, there is absolutely no reason he can't wear his tight shorts, ride in the Tour, and own and operate a computer AND be a faithful Mennonite.
P.S. I am a Mennonite.
I think you are confusing Amish with Mennonite. Both are Anabaptist religions, but they aren't the same, and there are varying levels of "modernism" in both.
TJR
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Yes, I do know that for a fact. And no, I'm not confusing Mennonites with Amish. I grew up in and still have ties with central Wisconsin, which is becoming the #2 Mennonite concentration in the country, after the Lancaster County, PA area. (Most of the Wisconsin-based Mennonites moved there from Lancaster County, mostly within the last 20 years.) In Wisconsin, I know lots of Mennonites, and have seen many of their practices and the things that they do or don't "allow". (By "lots", I'm talking at least triple-digits.) When my parents retired and sold their farm, it was a Mennonite family that bought it--and immediately set out to "convert" it to meet their religious standards.
That all said, I will admit that I'm only familiar with the particular group of Mennonites that have settled in central Wisconsin. If, as you indicate, there are varying groups of Mennonites, with varying degrees of acceptance of modernization, I'll admit that I don't know much about that. But I do know that the Mennonites in Wisconsin, while not as conservative as most Amish, do reject most modern technological advancements. And I do know that this group of Mennonites is directly tied to the Lancaster County community that Landis is from, and live by the same practices. They do not use electric lighting. They do not use cars--only horses, buggies, and bikes. (All the banks in my hometown, and even the McDonald's, have hitching posts in their parking lots.) They do allow tractors in the fields, but no rubber tires. They use electric refrigerators, ranges, and land-based phones, but that's the only use of electricity that I'm aware of. Computers are completely out of the question. (So clearly, either you're in a different group of Mennonites that have far different restrictions, or you're completely lying through your teeth. I'm going to assume the former.) Leather belts are not allowed on men or boys--nearly all use suspenders. Women and girls only wear full-length dresses/skirts--no pants. Shorts and any other clothing that exposes any part of the leg are prohibited, as are most "vibrant" colors.
Regarding Floyd Landis--Many of my Mennonite friends know or knew Floyd personally before they moved to Wisconsin, and have followed his career. When he first started competing (when he was still Mennonite), he wore sweatpants and had steel-rimmed bicycle wheels, to comply with his religious background. At first, he was primarily a mountain biker. As he succeeded more and more, and wanted to advance, he realized he needed to adopt modern biking practices (shorts, rubber tires, etc.) to do so--and it was about that time that he started leaving his Mennonite faith. (I obviously can't say whether it was biking that drove him from the Mennonite faith, or the two just coincided--only he could say, and the Mennonites I know have widely varying opinions on it.) He now lives in southern California.
It was revealed part way through this year's Tour that he has a badly damaged hip joint, which he's been suffering with for several years. It was bad enough that he was able to get a waiver to take cortizone injections for it. It's bad enough that, now that the Tour is over, he's likely going to have hip replacement surgery--after which it's unknown if he'll ever be able to compete again at this level. And from what I've heard, the damage was likely done 10-20 years ago--when he was training for and competing in mountain bike events on steel wheels.
Here's an article that my Mom sent to me. (My parents still live within two miles of the farm I grew up on, talk daily to the family that bought our farm, and last summer they visited Lancaster County while traveling out east and met relatives of lots of people they know.) Like most news stories written by a reporter who comes in wholly unfamiliar with the subject they're reporting on, there are some points it doesn't quite get right--but the general gist of Landis'
That all said, I will admit that I'm only familiar with the particular group of Mennonites that have settled in central Wisconsin. If, as you indicate, there are varying groups of Mennonites, with varying degrees of acceptance of modernization, I'll admit that I don't know much about that. But I do know that the Mennonites in Wisconsin, while not as conservative as most Amish, do reject most modern technological advancements. And I do know that this group of Mennonites is directly tied to the Lancaster County community that Landis is from, and live by the same practices. They do not use electric lighting. They do not use cars--only horses, buggies, and bikes. (All the banks in my hometown, and even the McDonald's, have hitching posts in their parking lots.) They do allow tractors in the fields, but no rubber tires. They use electric refrigerators, ranges, and land-based phones, but that's the only use of electricity that I'm aware of. Computers are completely out of the question. (So clearly, either you're in a different group of Mennonites that have far different restrictions, or you're completely lying through your teeth. I'm going to assume the former.) Leather belts are not allowed on men or boys--nearly all use suspenders. Women and girls only wear full-length dresses/skirts--no pants. Shorts and any other clothing that exposes any part of the leg are prohibited, as are most "vibrant" colors.
Regarding Floyd Landis--Many of my Mennonite friends know or knew Floyd personally before they moved to Wisconsin, and have followed his career. When he first started competing (when he was still Mennonite), he wore sweatpants and had steel-rimmed bicycle wheels, to comply with his religious background. At first, he was primarily a mountain biker. As he succeeded more and more, and wanted to advance, he realized he needed to adopt modern biking practices (shorts, rubber tires, etc.) to do so--and it was about that time that he started leaving his Mennonite faith. (I obviously can't say whether it was biking that drove him from the Mennonite faith, or the two just coincided--only he could say, and the Mennonites I know have widely varying opinions on it.) He now lives in southern California.
It was revealed part way through this year's Tour that he has a badly damaged hip joint, which he's been suffering with for several years. It was bad enough that he was able to get a waiver to take cortizone injections for it. It's bad enough that, now that the Tour is over, he's likely going to have hip replacement surgery--after which it's unknown if he'll ever be able to compete again at this level. And from what I've heard, the damage was likely done 10-20 years ago--when he was training for and competing in mountain bike events on steel wheels.
Here's an article that my Mom sent to me. (My parents still live within two miles of the farm I grew up on, talk daily to the family that bought our farm, and last summer they visited Lancaster County while traveling out east and met relatives of lots of people they know.) Like most news stories written by a reporter who comes in wholly unfamiliar with the subject they're reporting on, there are some points it doesn't quite get right--but the general gist of Landis'
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Many of the Mennonites in Lancaster, PA area and other areas of Southeastern PA (where I live) have mostly moved away from the traditions that would make them appear to many like Amish. There are more Mennonites in my area that have "regular" jobs, dress like "regular" people, have computers in their home and drive "regular" cars. In many areas they outnumber those that would shun any of those things.
Like I said, there are many types of Mennonites (traditional, black-bumper, modern) and they typically live and work in communites together, and they often congregate and mix in the same churches.
I think that a majority of people that claim to be part of the Mennonite church look and live more like "normal folk" than like what most people think of when they think of Amish. That was my point, your local observances are contrary to that, but it's a big country and a rather large following:
Take a look at the population density of Mennonites in the country:
http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/mennonite.gif
And the Mennonite Church website (strange that they would have a website, no? )...
TJR
Like I said, there are many types of Mennonites (traditional, black-bumper, modern) and they typically live and work in communites together, and they often congregate and mix in the same churches.
I think that a majority of people that claim to be part of the Mennonite church look and live more like "normal folk" than like what most people think of when they think of Amish. That was my point, your local observances are contrary to that, but it's a big country and a rather large following:
Take a look at the population density of Mennonites in the country:
http://www.valpo.edu/geomet/pics/geo200/religion/mennonite.gif
And the Mennonite Church website (strange that they would have a website, no?
)...TJR
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Bill V
Well-Known Member
Thanks TJR. I'll definitely look into it!
You know, I've never really heard why so many of the Mennonites in Wisconsin came there from Pennsylvania, rather than stay in that region. Maybe they felt that their brethren in Lancaster were becoming too modern... (I say that partially kiddingly, and partially as a serious hypothesis.) But I'm not aware of any of them in our area living as modern of a lifestyle as you indicate. I guess I've learned my thing for the day--can I go home now?
Edit: Clark County, WI, is the one darker county in Wisconsin on that map--and I have no doubts that the Mennonite population growth there since 2000 has pushed it to that darkest shade of purple by now!
You know, I've never really heard why so many of the Mennonites in Wisconsin came there from Pennsylvania, rather than stay in that region. Maybe they felt that their brethren in Lancaster were becoming too modern... (I say that partially kiddingly, and partially as a serious hypothesis.) But I'm not aware of any of them in our area living as modern of a lifestyle as you indicate. I guess I've learned my thing for the day--can I go home now?
Edit: Clark County, WI, is the one darker county in Wisconsin on that map--and I have no doubts that the Mennonite population growth there since 2000 has pushed it to that darkest shade of purple by now!
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I will tell you why so many Mennonites branched out.
Inbreeding.
I am serious. This area of mine spawned many large families (Landis, Moyer, Alderfer, Bergey), and you can't throw a cat without hitting one. And several generations back cousins marrying cousins was a HUGE problem.
So, to mix things up, families started to relocated, to setup or go to "out of state" schools (like Eastern Mennonite University), and that planted the seeds elsewhere of the culture, and integrated new blood into the gene pool.
TJR
Inbreeding.
I am serious. This area of mine spawned many large families (Landis, Moyer, Alderfer, Bergey), and you can't throw a cat without hitting one. And several generations back cousins marrying cousins was a HUGE problem.
So, to mix things up, families started to relocated, to setup or go to "out of state" schools (like Eastern Mennonite University), and that planted the seeds elsewhere of the culture, and integrated new blood into the gene pool.
TJR
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Don't say that too loud, TJR--some of the people on this board will use that against you when you get into a political discussion with them... :lol:
Seriously, though--If they think that inbreeding is a problem, they need to realize that simply moving part of their population to a different location won't improve things, unless they introduce some new blood lines. And to my knowledge, at least in Clark County, that isn't happening. The locals are welcoming them with open arms, but they're not converting religions or getting many/any mixed marriages.
Seriously, though--If they think that inbreeding is a problem, they need to realize that simply moving part of their population to a different location won't improve things, unless they introduce some new blood lines. And to my knowledge, at least in Clark County, that isn't happening. The locals are welcoming them with open arms, but they're not converting religions or getting many/any mixed marriages.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Give it time, Bill V, it takes time. Attitudes change. Locals do get converted. However, I was talking about several decades to 100s of years ago. The Mennonite church I go to was established in 1740. They have some history and listening to the old timers about how things have changed is very interesting. I helped our current Pastor buy his high-end Dell laptop, and we have been in conversation about an lcd overhead projection system for the chruch, and whether or not its the right time to change the Sunday sermon recording medium from tape to CD. All in a church with a congregation of only about 120 members.
TJR
TJR
Dale Carlson
Active Member
There was mention of Landis' Mennonite history by a media pundit, and how drug testing Landis wouldn't be a problem because of his cultural background. From you discussion, it seems that the Mennonites allow for growth, albeit maybe not as quickly as the rest of society, and only after careful consideration. So how does his hip replacement fit it in to all of that?
From reading Bill V's post, the hip replacement appears to be a result of him riding his bike with steel wheels, per the Mennonite faith's beliefs. Thus, his being a former Mennoninte has direct effect on his hip replacement.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Jenn, I should clarify--I heard about the hip injury being related to the steel wheels from a friend of mine that knows the Landis family. But I don't know if this is the opinion of Floyd Landis's doctors, or Floyd's hypothesis, or Floyd's family's hypothesis, or just my friend's hypothesis. So unless someone knows something more than I do, or finds information to that effect, I'd take that with a grain of salt.
Kefguy, seeing that Landis no longer considers himself to be Mennonite, I doubt the replacement hip is a religious consideration at all. I'm not sure how it would be seen if he were still Mennonite--be it a more modernized Mennonite like TJR, or a more traditional one like those I know. It would be interesting to ask them sometime. TJR, do you have any insight?
Kefguy, seeing that Landis no longer considers himself to be Mennonite, I doubt the replacement hip is a religious consideration at all. I'm not sure how it would be seen if he were still Mennonite--be it a more modernized Mennonite like TJR, or a more traditional one like those I know. It would be interesting to ask them sometime. TJR, do you have any insight?
Deleted deleted
Well-Known Member
I don't care what religion he is, it was a remarkable comeback to win the Tour!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
An elderly lady in our congregation who came from a very traditional Mennonite upbringing (standard clothes, no ear piercing, no makeup, head covering) just had both knees replaced in a minimally invasive procedure. And, she is a grand lady in her mid to late 60s who is from a generation of Mennonites that started to "loosen up" from the old ways. She doesn't wear her head covering, for example, and wears regular clothing.
But, she is still a Mennonite.
TJR
But, she is still a Mennonite.
TJR
Dale Carlson
Active Member
This could be bad:
Tour de France winner failed drug test in race
Team to dismiss Landis if excessive level of testosterone confirmed
LONDON - Floyd Landis’ stunning Tour de France victory just four days earlier was thrown into question Thursday when his team said he tested positive for high levels of testosterone during the race.
The Phonak team suspended Landis, pending results of the backup “B†sample of his drug test. If Landis is found guilty of doping, he could be stripped of the Tour title, and Spain’s Oscar Pereiro would become champion.
more...
Tour de France winner failed drug test in race
Team to dismiss Landis if excessive level of testosterone confirmed
LONDON - Floyd Landis’ stunning Tour de France victory just four days earlier was thrown into question Thursday when his team said he tested positive for high levels of testosterone during the race.
The Phonak team suspended Landis, pending results of the backup “B†sample of his drug test. If Landis is found guilty of doping, he could be stripped of the Tour title, and Spain’s Oscar Pereiro would become champion.
more...
