Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Eddie,
You do belong to a group, they are called "Patriots".:supercool:
You do belong to a group, they are called "Patriots".:supercool:
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EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
Cant believe I missed that. That kinda reaching a far fetch of the common freedom loving arms bearing citizen. I myself have no desire for a grenade, dont know anyone that does.. What a strange example of the second admendment.
I do suspect there is an underground in this country, that have such access to heavy armanent. They are not the ones on the front and center of the discussion. Of not tearing down or modding the second admendment.
I would hope the federal Gov. Never pushes their buttons. KAOS in the land.
Eddie,
My point was that there are already many restrictions to our "right to bear arms". There are many types of arms we as civilians are not allowed to have access to...even if we could afford to buy them.
Who do you feel we will be fighting against? Who's the enemy? If the Tyrannical power mentioned by by the authors of the Constitution is referring to US Politicians, I think we have enough checks and balances built into our laws, Constitution, and Bill of Rights that could not happen.... That only happens in movies.
If our politicians tried to abolish the Constitution, overthrow our democracy and become a dictatorship, who is going to do their fighting for them? Most of the military would take their arms and ammo and move over to fight on the side of the civilians....The military oath requires you to defend the Constitution...and I have faith that they will do it. Also, the military is not allowed to mount an offense against US Citizens. Even Martial Law only allows the Military to Defend the laws and rights of citizens.
If a foreign enemy were to invade the US and our military, with all their weapons, intellegence, satellites, drones, etc could not stop them, I doubt that a bunch of disorganized civilians with semi-automatic assault weapons would have much effect. I'm sure the military has mapped out that scenario and have done many battle simulations to which we are not privy to.
So, I think people who use these kinds of Apocalyptic scenarios to justify the need for military style firepower are paranoid and think that limiting magazines size is somehow taking away our right to bear arms and is the first strike at disarming the civilian population.
Everyone says that it's not the gun, it the mental state of the person who does the shooting. And I agree, but how do ferret out those who should never be allowed to own or have access to a gun? There is no mental test that will determine who will likely commit mass murders in the future.
There are many people who have many different forms of anti-social behavior who are not dangerous.... Many people don't socialize with their neighbors and they may be completely normal respectful citizens until they have a minor run in with the law over a traffic ticket, or the IRS, or an ex-spouse and suddenly they flip out and start shooting up a court room, or an IRS office, etc.
I don't think any citizen has a justifiable reason to posses any weapon with the offensive military firepower of assault rifles with high capacity magazines.
...Rich
My point was that there are already many restrictions to our "right to bear arms". There are many types of arms we as civilians are not allowed to have access to...even if we could afford to buy them.
Who do you feel we will be fighting against? Who's the enemy? If the Tyrannical power mentioned by by the authors of the Constitution is referring to US Politicians, I think we have enough checks and balances built into our laws, Constitution, and Bill of Rights that could not happen.... That only happens in movies.
If our politicians tried to abolish the Constitution, overthrow our democracy and become a dictatorship, who is going to do their fighting for them? Most of the military would take their arms and ammo and move over to fight on the side of the civilians....The military oath requires you to defend the Constitution...and I have faith that they will do it. Also, the military is not allowed to mount an offense against US Citizens. Even Martial Law only allows the Military to Defend the laws and rights of citizens.
If a foreign enemy were to invade the US and our military, with all their weapons, intellegence, satellites, drones, etc could not stop them, I doubt that a bunch of disorganized civilians with semi-automatic assault weapons would have much effect. I'm sure the military has mapped out that scenario and have done many battle simulations to which we are not privy to.
So, I think people who use these kinds of Apocalyptic scenarios to justify the need for military style firepower are paranoid and think that limiting magazines size is somehow taking away our right to bear arms and is the first strike at disarming the civilian population.
Everyone says that it's not the gun, it the mental state of the person who does the shooting. And I agree, but how do ferret out those who should never be allowed to own or have access to a gun? There is no mental test that will determine who will likely commit mass murders in the future.
There are many people who have many different forms of anti-social behavior who are not dangerous.... Many people don't socialize with their neighbors and they may be completely normal respectful citizens until they have a minor run in with the law over a traffic ticket, or the IRS, or an ex-spouse and suddenly they flip out and start shooting up a court room, or an IRS office, etc.
I don't think any citizen has a justifiable reason to posses any weapon with the offensive military firepower of assault rifles with high capacity magazines.
...Rich
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
Rich,
We can agree to disagree. About what we each see deteriating in this country.
I hope Im wrong and your right. But I dont like what I see at this time, and for the last decade. Or the last three presidents. Also wishy washy reps. That no one wants to vote out. The citizens dont want to loose that pork and fat cow. So they are willing to eventualy, give up rights. Starting with firearms controls, that will only increase with time. Because of a few, that you will never control their actions, anyway. They are nuts, they will always find a way.
Peace, brother...
We can agree to disagree. About what we each see deteriating in this country.
I hope Im wrong and your right. But I dont like what I see at this time, and for the last decade. Or the last three presidents. Also wishy washy reps. That no one wants to vote out. The citizens dont want to loose that pork and fat cow. So they are willing to eventualy, give up rights. Starting with firearms controls, that will only increase with time. Because of a few, that you will never control their actions, anyway. They are nuts, they will always find a way.
Peace, brother...
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Would not stop me from trying, and I doubt it would stop you and many others in Texas.
The Kent State shootings?also known as the May 4 massacre or the Kent State massacre occurred at Kent State University in the U.S. city of Kent, Ohio, and involved the shooting of unarmed college students by the Ohio National Guard on Monday, May 4, 1970. The guardsmen fired 67 rounds over a period of 13 seconds, killing four students and wounding nine others, one of whom suffered permanent paralysis.
Given what you think, you do realize that just about every (as classified by you) assault weapon (3+million) and high capacity magazine (20 + million) in the US has been sold. They can outlaw future sales, but those in possession are not coming back. A 30 round magazine cost $12.95, even given all your feeling on no "justifiable possession" isn't it a small price to pay for something that you think and hope you will never be needed? I bought a package of vegetables yesterday at the market that I hope I never have to eat and have a better chance of killing me that my 30 round magazine. I hate vegetables.
Eddie,
Of course I will agree to disagree. We just have a difference of opinion and probably neither one of us are right or wrong.
Redfish,
I think we have gone over all this territory before and you will not convince me to switch to your thinking, but I do like your sense of humor..:grin:
As for Kent State Massacure, it was not an attempt to overthrow the government or any political action...It was a tragic mistake made by the National Guardsmen who were poorly trained in dealing with such matters....and only pointed out that the military is not allowed to mount an offensive attack on civilians. So why did the incident happen?
1. The Guardsmen should have never had loaded weapons.
2. The Guardsmen claim that they feared for their lives because the students were advancing on them.
3. Some Guardsment claimed they were first shot at by the students...That was shown to be a lie.
4. The FBI investigation concluded that the Guardsmen's excuse that they were threatened by the students was bogus.
5. Some Guardsmen were put on trial for conspiracy to deliberately shoot the students, but were acquitted due to lack of evidence.
Could this incident happen again? Perhaps, but not likely, but even if it did, do you think your having an Assault rifle with a 30 round magazine would have made a difference?...Yes, there would just be a lot more dead people!
...Rich
Of course I will agree to disagree. We just have a difference of opinion and probably neither one of us are right or wrong.
Redfish,
I think we have gone over all this territory before and you will not convince me to switch to your thinking, but I do like your sense of humor..:grin:
As for Kent State Massacure, it was not an attempt to overthrow the government or any political action...It was a tragic mistake made by the National Guardsmen who were poorly trained in dealing with such matters....and only pointed out that the military is not allowed to mount an offensive attack on civilians. So why did the incident happen?
1. The Guardsmen should have never had loaded weapons.
2. The Guardsmen claim that they feared for their lives because the students were advancing on them.
3. Some Guardsment claimed they were first shot at by the students...That was shown to be a lie.
4. The FBI investigation concluded that the Guardsmen's excuse that they were threatened by the students was bogus.
5. Some Guardsmen were put on trial for conspiracy to deliberately shoot the students, but were acquitted due to lack of evidence.
Could this incident happen again? Perhaps, but not likely, but even if it did, do you think your having an Assault rifle with a 30 round magazine would have made a difference?...Yes, there would just be a lot more dead people!
...Rich
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
Redfish, Good points.
Too many fruitless what ifs. About what the government wont do.
Too many fruitless what ifs, about how many nuts are out there.
I have to believe and hope that the Gov. Will not allow .0000001% of the nuts that may take action. Control what happens to. The honeset gun owners. That will keep their guns holstered as long as the Gov., keeps theirs' holstered, not allowing a tryanical extremeism take over. Those I know that conceal carry. Only carry 10% of the time. depends what they are doing or where they are going.
Then again history repeats. The history books have already been rewriten. Ask high schoolers the difference between the nazi's and the comunist. The answers are sad.
I talk to many much younger than I. Even in my Church. That think our constitution is out dated. Some have no problem limiting freedom of speech. Not meaning down right hate speach. Just anything they dont want to hear. Sad news is many law makers are pandering to them. What ever happened to proud to serve and preserve. Then going back to civilian life. Now it is a life job, with perks, private citizens will never have. Our fault though. Complacent and not paying attention.
I do need to get out of this. Too full of what ifs, and whys. Almost as if some purposful button pushing starting to arise.
Peace
Too many fruitless what ifs. About what the government wont do.
Too many fruitless what ifs, about how many nuts are out there.
I have to believe and hope that the Gov. Will not allow .0000001% of the nuts that may take action. Control what happens to. The honeset gun owners. That will keep their guns holstered as long as the Gov., keeps theirs' holstered, not allowing a tryanical extremeism take over. Those I know that conceal carry. Only carry 10% of the time. depends what they are doing or where they are going.
Then again history repeats. The history books have already been rewriten. Ask high schoolers the difference between the nazi's and the comunist. The answers are sad.
I talk to many much younger than I. Even in my Church. That think our constitution is out dated. Some have no problem limiting freedom of speech. Not meaning down right hate speach. Just anything they dont want to hear. Sad news is many law makers are pandering to them. What ever happened to proud to serve and preserve. Then going back to civilian life. Now it is a life job, with perks, private citizens will never have. Our fault though. Complacent and not paying attention.
I do need to get out of this. Too full of what ifs, and whys. Almost as if some purposful button pushing starting to arise.
Peace
Eddie and Redfish
That's exactly my point. People who try to justify their right to an assault weapon with large capacity magazines often use the excuse that they may have to defend themselves from a tyrannical government run amok , or a foreign military invasion of the US.
Those are two of the most fruitless and illogical "What If's" !!!! How does believing that it might happen have any more validity than those who believe it won't or can't happen?
It has not happened in 200 years, and there are plenty of safeguards in our laws, Constitution, Citizen vigilance, and checks and balances in our government to insure that it does not happen. The fact that some people do not trust our government does not justify that citizens should arm themselves with military grade weapons.....That is just paranoia and too many people are being taken in by that kind of thinking.
Even if some political office holders wanted to try to circumvent the Constitution and install a dictatorship, there would be a lot of early warning signs that someone was attempting to plot a take over. I don't think that banning assault weapons and large capacity magazines constitutes a plot to over throw our democratic form of government. Even the NRA does not think that Congress will pass another Assault weapon or large capacity magazine ban.
So if Congress is taking up your side of the argument, that Assault weapons and large capacity magazines are a constitutional right, then it would also imply that those same politicians are not plotting to over throw the government??? So what makes you so paranoid that it might happen?
If there is any kind of battle with the citizens against the government or politicians, it will occur in the voting booths and the Supreme Court.
...Rich
That's exactly my point. People who try to justify their right to an assault weapon with large capacity magazines often use the excuse that they may have to defend themselves from a tyrannical government run amok , or a foreign military invasion of the US.
Those are two of the most fruitless and illogical "What If's" !!!! How does believing that it might happen have any more validity than those who believe it won't or can't happen?
It has not happened in 200 years, and there are plenty of safeguards in our laws, Constitution, Citizen vigilance, and checks and balances in our government to insure that it does not happen. The fact that some people do not trust our government does not justify that citizens should arm themselves with military grade weapons.....That is just paranoia and too many people are being taken in by that kind of thinking.
Even if some political office holders wanted to try to circumvent the Constitution and install a dictatorship, there would be a lot of early warning signs that someone was attempting to plot a take over. I don't think that banning assault weapons and large capacity magazines constitutes a plot to over throw our democratic form of government. Even the NRA does not think that Congress will pass another Assault weapon or large capacity magazine ban.
So if Congress is taking up your side of the argument, that Assault weapons and large capacity magazines are a constitutional right, then it would also imply that those same politicians are not plotting to over throw the government??? So what makes you so paranoid that it might happen?
If there is any kind of battle with the citizens against the government or politicians, it will occur in the voting booths and the Supreme Court.
...Rich
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Really? Tell that to the 297 victims murdered at Wounded Knee.
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EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
It has been in the news. That OB has been working with his lawyers. He wants to write an exucutive order about guns. What makes you think he wont. He has been more atimate with those orders that many of them havent been anounced and read to the citizens yet.
His Idea of the executive office has been more of Im the boss. Than any president in the past. He has people from bath sides of the isle that think he can do no wrong. Dont be suprised when he gets a 3rd term passed.
His Idea of the executive office has been more of Im the boss. Than any president in the past. He has people from bath sides of the isle that think he can do no wrong. Dont be suprised when he gets a 3rd term passed.
TrainTrac,
The incident at Wounded Knee was over 120 years ago, but under similiar circumstances that occurred at Kent State. Wounded Knee was not forgotten just as Kent State was not forgotten. While I agree that the Federal troops over-reacted, the fact is that the Indians were not considered American Citizens at that time, and to a great extent, they still exist on reservations with their own tribal laws which are off limits to Federal Authorities.
And before you drag the Branch Dividians in Waco, TX, I live in Waco and was the IT Department Director in the Hospital where the FBI and ATF set up their HQ on the floor above my office and this is where many of the wounded Federal agents and Branch Dividians were taken after the initial Sunday morning shoot out.
In all these incidents, Federal agents arrived armed with a hair trigger and ready for a fight and unfortunately going into that situation with that kind of an attitude led them to panic and open fire. All of the incidents are in question as to who fired the first shot. In the Wounded Knee incident, the Calvary troops even shot their own men which clearly indicates that they were in a panic situation and not properly trained to deal with that kind of situation.
However, none of those incidents would warrant a civilian's need for military weapons...as it would only result in more deaths or bloodshed.
...Rich
The incident at Wounded Knee was over 120 years ago, but under similiar circumstances that occurred at Kent State. Wounded Knee was not forgotten just as Kent State was not forgotten. While I agree that the Federal troops over-reacted, the fact is that the Indians were not considered American Citizens at that time, and to a great extent, they still exist on reservations with their own tribal laws which are off limits to Federal Authorities.
And before you drag the Branch Dividians in Waco, TX, I live in Waco and was the IT Department Director in the Hospital where the FBI and ATF set up their HQ on the floor above my office and this is where many of the wounded Federal agents and Branch Dividians were taken after the initial Sunday morning shoot out.
In all these incidents, Federal agents arrived armed with a hair trigger and ready for a fight and unfortunately going into that situation with that kind of an attitude led them to panic and open fire. All of the incidents are in question as to who fired the first shot. In the Wounded Knee incident, the Calvary troops even shot their own men which clearly indicates that they were in a panic situation and not properly trained to deal with that kind of situation.
However, none of those incidents would warrant a civilian's need for military weapons...as it would only result in more deaths or bloodshed.
...Rich
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Don't have any way of knowing, but he dead may have a different view.
BTW, while they were deemed as Federal Troops in the Kent State incident, they were National Guardsmen who can only function under the direction of the Governor of the state...so it really had nothing to do with the Federal Government over-stepping it's authority. It was Federal troops acting under the direction and on the behalf of the Governor of Ohio, and were put in a position for which they were not trained to handle. The Federal Government had nothing to do with the Kent State incident.
Just as the people in Louisiana claimed it was the Federal governments fault for not responding quickly enough. But the fault lies with the Governor of Louisiana because Federal troops or Fema cannot enter a state until they are invited/requested by the Governor of that state.
...Rich
Just as the people in Louisiana claimed it was the Federal governments fault for not responding quickly enough. But the fault lies with the Governor of Louisiana because Federal troops or Fema cannot enter a state until they are invited/requested by the Governor of that state.
...Rich
Jim Upton
Active Member
Eddie, you and I have many of the same beliefs. I have heard many talk of Obama getting a 3rd term as well. It is written that during war time this is legally possible. I will be curiuos to see what war we will be in come 2015 and 16. Now he wants to raise the debt ceiling and make this country even more in debt. So lets see we will be, unarmed and broke and totally dependant on the so called government that is there to help us Rich??? I cant not understand for the life of me what some americans are missing with this guy. I am yet to find the majority that so called voted him in, I dont believe it for a minute. I do believe if i do not see it that my son surely will see a revolution in this country to take it back. Believe as you wish people, The history books are going to be very interesting in the future. Dont tread on me! Jim
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Who funds the National Guard? Who funds the National Guards retirement system? Who supplies all the equipment to the National Guard? Who has the authority to send units from one State into another. The Federal Government.
BTW for the sake of this discussion it makes no difference what the shoulder patch on the uniform said if he shoots you dead.
BTW for the sake of this discussion it makes no difference what the shoulder patch on the uniform said if he shoots you dead.
Redfish,
It really does make a difference because states still have their sovereignty and Federal troops are not allowed to take any action in any state unless they are requested by the Governor. The troops did not invade Ohio and attempt to take over the government of Ohio, nor was martial law declared.
None of these incidents implies that the Federal government is trying to take away the rights of citizens....They only point out that the Government, is made up of people and like all people they makes mistakes. When you escalate these incidents to imply that the Federal government did all of these things intentionally or that Obama or any President planned or ordered these events sheer lunacy.
Now people are saying that Obama is planning to be elected to a 3rd term? That is just paranoia. Paranoia is.defined as an overwhelming, irrational fear of something that is not likely to happen...and yet people are using their paranoia and spreading it to others as the justification for assault weapons and large capacity magazines?
...Rich
It really does make a difference because states still have their sovereignty and Federal troops are not allowed to take any action in any state unless they are requested by the Governor. The troops did not invade Ohio and attempt to take over the government of Ohio, nor was martial law declared.
None of these incidents implies that the Federal government is trying to take away the rights of citizens....They only point out that the Government, is made up of people and like all people they makes mistakes. When you escalate these incidents to imply that the Federal government did all of these things intentionally or that Obama or any President planned or ordered these events sheer lunacy.
Now people are saying that Obama is planning to be elected to a 3rd term? That is just paranoia. Paranoia is.defined as an overwhelming, irrational fear of something that is not likely to happen...and yet people are using their paranoia and spreading it to others as the justification for assault weapons and large capacity magazines?
...Rich
Nick Miller
Active Member
Semi-auto weapons(and full-auto[legal in my state]) and high capacity mags: good enough for police and military, good enough for me. :supercool:
Robert Thomas
Well-Known Member
Rich,
No the troops did not invade Ohio, they were already there. The fact that the individuals were killed made no matter who's troops they were, or that martial law was not declared. "Whoops my bad" doesn't cut it when you are the one dead with no legal means of defense.
I never implied that the Federal government did all the things intentionally or that Obama ordered these events or may do so in the future. I merely responded to your "the military is not allowed to mount an offense against US Citizens". Presently ,as I understand it, the National Guard, the US Coast Guard and any forces authorized for use by Homeland Security do not fall under the Posse Cumitatus Law.
There is one Senator that has drafted a Bill to allow a third term.
The Post was nothing more than a statement that the paranoia/good judgment) take your pick you suggest has already happened based on a few of sites I visited.
Good Judgment is defined as a $12.95 investment required by the conditions of my Social Security Check. Last year I spent most of my $72 a month allotment being "Social", by buying beer for me and my friends. One month I decided to spend $12.95 on Security" and only spent $59.05 on beer. I figured I had to in case 50 agents raided my files to check, I could show I was using the check in accordance with the law. :haveabeer:
No the troops did not invade Ohio, they were already there. The fact that the individuals were killed made no matter who's troops they were, or that martial law was not declared. "Whoops my bad" doesn't cut it when you are the one dead with no legal means of defense.
I never implied that the Federal government did all the things intentionally or that Obama ordered these events or may do so in the future. I merely responded to your "the military is not allowed to mount an offense against US Citizens". Presently ,as I understand it, the National Guard, the US Coast Guard and any forces authorized for use by Homeland Security do not fall under the Posse Cumitatus Law.
There is one Senator that has drafted a Bill to allow a third term.
The Post was nothing more than a statement that the paranoia/good judgment) take your pick you suggest has already happened based on a few of sites I visited.
Good Judgment is defined as a $12.95 investment required by the conditions of my Social Security Check. Last year I spent most of my $72 a month allotment being "Social", by buying beer for me and my friends. One month I decided to spend $12.95 on Security" and only spent $59.05 on beer. I figured I had to in case 50 agents raided my files to check, I could show I was using the check in accordance with the law. :haveabeer:
Redfish,
I'm glad you followed the Federal guidelines for spending your Social Security check... I'm not a big beer drinker so I only buy a 6 pack perhaps once every six months...not sure if that meets all the Federal laws, but I;m willing to take the risk and hope I won't be raided..:haveabeer:
...Rich
I'm glad you followed the Federal guidelines for spending your Social Security check... I'm not a big beer drinker so I only buy a 6 pack perhaps once every six months...not sure if that meets all the Federal laws, but I;m willing to take the risk and hope I won't be raided..:haveabeer:
...Rich
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
Now to add another. The liberal news media used the public information act. To announce all gun owners in NY. Their addresses and phone#s. It has already created a hail storm for a few criminal court judges that are gun owners.
Plus some things are private despite the public info act. All hear know Iam. It was my choice to say so.
Not my nieghbors or others I choose not to tell.
Another thing I heard last night was. OB and biden are second guessing about tampering with the 2cnd admendment. We will have to wait and see.
Plus some things are private despite the public info act. All hear know Iam. It was my choice to say so.
Not my nieghbors or others I choose not to tell.
Another thing I heard last night was. OB and biden are second guessing about tampering with the 2cnd admendment. We will have to wait and see.
