How long will the Ethanol Nonsense Last?

[H D]

We all know it's not a viable solution, just another ill-conceived subsidy. So, how long do we have to suffer this terrible plight on combustion engines?



I'd give it 2 or 3 more years if I thought a reasonable conclusion could somehow make it to Capitol Hill, but the Farm Bill is one tough act to effect real changes into. If I were a politician, I'd rather try to clean up Wall Street, or even Congress, before trying to take on corporate farming.



As of January 2013, it is expected by my local gas station owner that she will no longer be able to get non-ethanol gasoline. I'm pretty pissed about that.:angry:

 

[Richard L]

Ethanol is an inexpensive way to raise the octane of gasoline...That's why most gasoline will contain up to 10% ethanol.



Ethanol is not a bad fuel, but you will get about 25% reduction in gas mileage, which would not be so bad if they would reduce the cost of ethanol. E85 is about the same price as regular gasoline (if you can find it). My objection to ethanol is the use of food (corn) to make it. That has driven up food costs because so many products contain something extracted from corn, an corn is a prinicple ingredient in many livestock feeds...so meat prices have gone up.



Switchgrass is an crop that has been shown to grow in nearly every climate in the US. It is very drought tollerant and grows in poor soil without the need for fertilizers. It yeilds more ethanol per acre than corn and you can get two crops per year.



The only reason that switchgrass is not grown is because our farmers are used to growing corn and they probably already have all the equipment for planting and harvesting corn. There are also a lot of subsidies for Corn and it's simpler and less complicated for farmers to just grow corn and they probably make a lot of money even if they crop fails. Also, most of the plants distilling corn to ethanol are equiped only to hand corn. That makes converting to switchgrass as our source of ethanol an expensive investment....but in the long run it will provide more ethanol at a lower cost, and with two crops, the farmer will quickly recoupe his investment.



...Rich

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh said:

We all know it's not a viable solution, just another ill-conceived subsidy. So, how long do we have to suffer this terrible plight on combustion engines?

It is viable when crude oil is expensive enough. Back when gas was $2.50 a gallon...correct, not economically viable. But when crude oil prices drive gas over $4 a gallon, well, then, the economics start to work.



Yeah, I could do without all the subsidies (pork) but I think biofuels are here to stay.



TJR

 

[H D]

If we can't find enough oil to meet our demands, how in the world do we expect to be able to find enough land to grow enough of any ethanol producing plant to fuel the future? It's a production problem. It's not environmentally friendly, either, from start to finish.



I'd be all behind it if it was even conceivably a viable long term solution but we cannot plant the entire world with corn or switchgrass. Or could we?



Is this the next African exploitation? Switchgrass cultivation on the Sahara?

 

[Gavin Allan]

Big Corn will not let it go away.



BTW: Did you know that the USDA is the largest federal agency in terms of office square feet and # of employees. Amazing how powerful the Agriculture lobby in this country is, even though agriculture accounts for less than 2% of the US workforce.

 

[Scott Tanner]

In NY, they don't put it into gas to stretch the oil supply out... They put it in to make the engines run cleaner. The E10 (10% alcohol) we use is an oxygenate and it helps lower the carbon monoxide levels.

I agree on usings something else to make it, though... Aroung us, the mash is reused in cattle feed after they make the enthanol.

 

[Richard L]

Hugh,

I think ethanol is just a transistion vehicle to stretch our gasoline and help reduce our oil imports while we look for a more permanent solution.



I think we all know that oil or ethanol will probably not be the automotive fuel of tomorrow...More likely we will be using compressed natural gas or some variation of hydrogen power (burned in an internal combustion engine, or used in a fuel cell to power an electric car. Perhaps a new kind of hybrid that combine natural gas engines and hydrogen generators to recharge the batteries for the electric motor powere.



There is also the Compressed Air car that is available in France but has never made it to the US yet. It runs on compressed air and uses gasoline in an air heater to raise the pressure. The car gets over 100 MPG, with a 400 mile range on just 8 gallons of gasoline. It has a self-contained compressor so that you can pressurize the air tank in a few hours or while you drive to extend the driving range. The car also incudes a battery and alternator to power all the accessories. The unique feature is that the car requires no oil changes, no tune-ups, and minimal maintenance. Prices are supposed to be in the $17K range.



...Rich

 

[Gavin Allan]

I can see a Trac prototype in the OneFlowAir vehicle (lower picture on the right). The wheels and tires are gonna have to go, and it will definately need about a 12" lift kit for offroad use, but the rest of it doesn't look too bad!



:banana:

 

[Gavin Allan]

More on the Trac replacement:

 

[Richard L]

Gavin,

I never said that the Compressed Air Car was a replacement for the Sport Trac, just that it was an alternative power source to the internal combustion engine.



...Rich

 

[Robert Caffyn]

Get used to it, EtOH is here to stay for as long as necessary. It will probably go to E85 at some point. The environmentalists will win this one, Ethanol comes from perpetuating crop, easily made, cleaner than gas and it benefits the farmers. Because the government has guaranteed to purchase all the corn they can grow, that doesn't go for food or feed. I have a saying "BOHICA" that is very appropriate for this situation. Bob

 

[EddieS'04]

There already is talk from DC about. Boosting all pumps to 15% to 20%.

Talk about messing up some older cars fuel systems. Already taking its toll small engines.



I like it but. Im trying to understand the horsepower wars. Might JMBMO but, I see it dying off in 2 yrs. Within the next generation, or less. All the states that have tried to push the HP aftermarket out of bussiness. Will get their bills passed.

 

[H D]

The main problem I see is that all of our food is made from corn...almost ALL without exaggeration. Read anything in your pantry. Well, most pantries, not mine. I'm no hippie, but I'm conscious about the food I buy and where it comes from.



We can't feed the nation and move it on the same source. There simply isn't enough land. I don't care how renewable it is.

 

[Robert Thomas]

Ethanol is a killer of 4 stroke outboard motors. I have to drive 30 min to get to a station that sells non-ethanol gas. It can't go away soon enough for me.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hugh,



Moving this country away from high-fructose corn syrup might very well be a good thing.

 

[H D]

I agree.



Corn's best use is straight off the cobb or in grits.

 

[EddieS'04]

Corn's best use is straight off the cobb or in grits.

MMMMMM! Love grits.......:supercool:

 

[Timmy-The-Ute]

If I want E85 I have to drive 54 miles. There is lots of corn in Utah but not much E85.

 

[DaninVa]

Rich.. I may not be the brightest bulb in the box, but isn't 100 MPG X 8 gals= 800 miles? :driving:

 

[Richard L]

DaninVA,

Yes, your math is correct, but the compressed air car is not like a hybrid, so it does not have a gasoline engine. The vehicle only operates on compressed air, and you can drive it about 80 miles on just compressed air. It only uses the gasoline in a special burner to super-heat small quantities of compressed air to increase the air pressure and extend the range of the vehicle.



The car only runs on compressed air and when it runs out of compressed air, the car stops... That means that the car may have plenty of gasoline in the gas tank, but if the air tank is empty, you are out of fuel for the engine... You can then plug in the car to a household outlet and the small, self-contained air compressor will refill the air tank to full pressure in about 8 hours.



They rated the car at an equivilant 104 MPG with a maximum range of 400+ miles with a full tank of compressed air (over 2500 PSI) and enought gasoline to heat the air and extend the range. Longer distances and higher speeds require more gasoline to super-heat the air to boost the pressure.



...Rich