Immunization shots, good or bad, your views without battles.
- Thread starter Jerry Gerner 2
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Andy Chase
Well-Known Member
I know awhile ago there was a British(?). Doctor that said he had evidence that he found a coorelation from immunizations and autism. then a couple of years ago it was found, and he admitted, that he fabricated everything he alledgedly found. If you have a way of finding it/watching it, look up Penn & Tellers "********" season 8 episode 10 on Vaccinations.
Mike Dziubina
Well-Known Member
Jerry and wife -
I would recommend the MMR and chickenpox vaccinations. Remember - chickenpox is caused by varicella virus...a child will develop chickenpox, but it can reactivate later in life causing herpes zoster as an adult (shingles) which is painful, but can also be severe if it involves certain nerves - especially the ones for the eye. There is also new research linking varicella to brain damage later in life. This is one of the reasons why "pox parties" are no longer advised to parents. Again, it is my opinion only, but why allow your son to get the virus when it can be prevented?
I will refer you to the link I include below. Ultimately, the decision is yours and do what you think is right. I wish your son the best of health.
JohhnyB - sorry to hear about your son as well. I am glad he is doing well.
Autism was FALSELY linked to the MMR vaccine by a doctor who was being paid by lawyers and pharmaceutical companies. Autism and PDD-NOS are under the same categories of autism spectrum disorders. Although similar, they are not the same.
I would recommend the MMR and chickenpox vaccinations. Remember - chickenpox is caused by varicella virus...a child will develop chickenpox, but it can reactivate later in life causing herpes zoster as an adult (shingles) which is painful, but can also be severe if it involves certain nerves - especially the ones for the eye. There is also new research linking varicella to brain damage later in life. This is one of the reasons why "pox parties" are no longer advised to parents. Again, it is my opinion only, but why allow your son to get the virus when it can be prevented?
I will refer you to the link I include below. Ultimately, the decision is yours and do what you think is right. I wish your son the best of health.
JohhnyB - sorry to hear about your son as well. I am glad he is doing well.
Autism was FALSELY linked to the MMR vaccine by a doctor who was being paid by lawyers and pharmaceutical companies. Autism and PDD-NOS are under the same categories of autism spectrum disorders. Although similar, they are not the same.
Jerry Gerner 2
Well-Known Member
Thank you all for the great helpful information. He's scheduled to get his vaccines on Tuesday. Just wanted more info, I know alot of ya'll are in the medical field.
:supercool:
:supercool:
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Johnny, sorry to hear about your son--but all the supposed "links" between vaccinations and autism have been thoroughly debunked. The fact that one event happened to chronologically follow another does not in and of itself mean that the first event caused the second to occur.
Not getting your child immunized should legally prevent them from being accepted to public or private schools. Parents who refuse to have their kids who are medically capable of being vaccinated unnecessarily puts those who are not medically capable at risk.
Not getting your child immunized should legally prevent them from being accepted to public or private schools. Parents who refuse to have their kids who are medically capable of being vaccinated unnecessarily puts those who are not medically capable at risk.
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Hugh,
In many school districts it is the board of education folk that figure out which right prevails.
Also, there are parents all over the country that are having to fight for, and having their rights challenged when it comes to what they feel are their rights to provide (or not provide) their child with healthcare as they see fit.
We would like to think such rights are clear cut. However, nothing so important is ever so simple, it seems to me, anyways.
TJR
In many school districts it is the board of education folk that figure out which right prevails.
Also, there are parents all over the country that are having to fight for, and having their rights challenged when it comes to what they feel are their rights to provide (or not provide) their child with healthcare as they see fit.
We would like to think such rights are clear cut. However, nothing so important is ever so simple, it seems to me, anyways.
TJR
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Yes, but when their decision to not vaccinate causes others to become ill, they should be held both financially and criminally liable for exercising that "right".
Saying people should have the right to not be vaccinated is like saying that they should have the right to flap their arms and fly. The laws of physics and biology need to supercede individual rights, by default.
Les
Well-Known Member
Your right for public education does not eliminate certain requirements. Immunizations are required by many public schools to protect other children and stop the spread of disease. Choosing not to immunize your child is your choice, but you can not expose others by your decision. If you do not immunize your child, and mine becomes sick due to your decision, be prepared for the consequences.
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Kinda like how biology and science proves that access to contraception has many advantages? Ignorant Catholics holding to their beliefs and trying to run not-for-profit hospitals and not providing contraceptives to patients. C'mon now. Rights are either a right or they're a privilege. I still maintain it is a right.
The issue about the rights of parents and the rights of children is a difficult one. I don't really know where I fall on that one but I am generally going to fall on the side of the child if it has no predictable harm to the child.
What's the point of the immunization if your child still gets sick from the very thing it was supposed to be protected from? If the immunization your child received works, then another child not having the vaccine and contracting the disease shouldn't affect your child. If that's not the case, then what was the point in the vaccination in the first place?
And for the record, I support immunizations. I also support individual freedom.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Hugh, not all children can be vaccinated. Because of allergies and/or other medical conditions, they are unable to receive the vaccines. (A large number of vaccines are made using chicken eggs, which some people are deathly allergic to.) However, if the vast majority of a population is immune to a disease, they can effectively make the entire population immune through a phenomenon known as "herd immunity". (Look up "herd immunity" on Wikipedia or elsewhere for more info.
The thresholds of the percentage of a population which must be immune for "herd immunity" to kick in vary, depending on the disease and the transmission method. But it doesn't take much of a small population (such as a town or school) to "opt out" of getting vaccinations to eliminate the effect. When that happens, the people who have opted out are not only putting themselves at risk, but also anyone who is physically unable to be vaccinated as well. It is for that reason that I believe that when that occurs, the people who opted out should be held both financially and criminally liable for that decision.
The thresholds of the percentage of a population which must be immune for "herd immunity" to kick in vary, depending on the disease and the transmission method. But it doesn't take much of a small population (such as a town or school) to "opt out" of getting vaccinations to eliminate the effect. When that happens, the people who have opted out are not only putting themselves at risk, but also anyone who is physically unable to be vaccinated as well. It is for that reason that I believe that when that occurs, the people who opted out should be held both financially and criminally liable for that decision.
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Thanks, but I don't need Wikipedia to understand "herd immunity." Is there any evidence that entire town populations have opted out of immunizations? I do believe most individuals do get the vaccinations and find your scenario highly unlikely. I still hold that individuals should have the option of opting out of vaccinations and not lose the right to public education. I really don't see these as mutually exclusive rights.
Les
Well-Known Member
Maybe not, but it's been that way for decades.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Hugh, sorry, I wasn't meaning to be preachy--It just seemed to me from your previous statement that you may not be aware of the "herd immunity" concept, so I was trying to provide a brief synopsis and a source for more info if you desired.
It doesn't take an "entire town" to opt out. It takes a relatively small amount. For diptheria, you need only 15% to either opt out or be physically unable to be immunized to lose herd immunity. For others, it's as low as 5-6%. Note that that's not the percentage of a country, or a state--but of any small community such as a school or town. And in some schools and towns in this country, yes, the numbers opting out are easily that high.
For now, then, we're going to have to simply disagree on that.
It doesn't take an "entire town" to opt out. It takes a relatively small amount. For diptheria, you need only 15% to either opt out or be physically unable to be immunized to lose herd immunity. For others, it's as low as 5-6%. Note that that's not the percentage of a country, or a state--but of any small community such as a school or town. And in some schools and towns in this country, yes, the numbers opting out are easily that high.
For now, then, we're going to have to simply disagree on that.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Hugh said:
You can hold to that, but I think you would be in the minority, and clearly not aligned with most public school districts.
Just flip the coin for a second. My child should have the right to a public education, one that is reasonably free from health risks and other dangers. If we give parents the choice of not vaccinating their kids and then sending them to school we run the risk of having dangerous health situations.
One right doesn't beget another right.
There are rights to free speech. There are rights to carry guns. The public educational system have curbed those rights again and again. If you want to go to school, or send your kids to their schools, you often have to play by their rules and it can curb some rights in the process. A good example is the right to free speech. Students (and parents) can post flyers, etc on school grounds at many schools....it is restricted.
What we are talking about is the restriction of one right at the sake of the partaking in another right. Happens all the time.
TJR
You can hold to that, but I think you would be in the minority, and clearly not aligned with most public school districts.
Just flip the coin for a second. My child should have the right to a public education, one that is reasonably free from health risks and other dangers. If we give parents the choice of not vaccinating their kids and then sending them to school we run the risk of having dangerous health situations.
One right doesn't beget another right.
There are rights to free speech. There are rights to carry guns. The public educational system have curbed those rights again and again. If you want to go to school, or send your kids to their schools, you often have to play by their rules and it can curb some rights in the process. A good example is the right to free speech. Students (and parents) can post flyers, etc on school grounds at many schools....it is restricted.
What we are talking about is the restriction of one right at the sake of the partaking in another right. Happens all the time.
TJR
Jerry Gerner 2
Well-Known Member
Well so much for no :argue:
Took Matthew in for his shots today, he did good on the first on, screamed on the second one and gave a dirty look "WTF" on the last one.
About four hours later her had some serious pain, screaming and redness around the injection area. Passed out from exhaustion and slept for 4 hours. So far so good.
Took Matthew in for his shots today, he did good on the first on, screamed on the second one and gave a dirty look "WTF" on the last one.
About four hours later her had some serious pain, screaming and redness around the injection area. Passed out from exhaustion and slept for 4 hours. So far so good.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Jerry,
Glad to hear he is doing well.
As for the battles, well, yeah, that's unfortunate. Seems whenever someone claims with authority how they think things are, or should be, its hard for a thread not to devolve into a meta-discussion. It's not necessarily a bad thing, I guess, but it certainly is expected when thoughtful, rational opinion is replaced with rhetoric.
Those that are willing to keep an open mind and look at the evidence can see that there is a lot of "junk science" out there about the potentially harmful effects of immunizations. There is clearly much more evidence to show that immunizations help and not harm...the ratio is like putting an elephant next to a gnat. People know that schools have and enforce immunizations for the protection of all students. These things can be discussed, and even debated, but its somewhat pointless at the end of the day.
The bottom-line as I see it is that children (yours and mine) are better with the shots than without, and all credible evidence shows that, and our society is demanding it. Trying to counter this conventional wisdom, practice, and trend will be akin to swimming upstream. Sure, you can do it, but it is so much easier/better when one turns around and swims with the tide.
I recognize my "bottom-line" statement above seems to be me trying to speak my opinion as authority. I guess I am guilty of that. But I don't think this is my opinion...I think it is the current "tide."
TJR
Glad to hear he is doing well.
As for the battles, well, yeah, that's unfortunate. Seems whenever someone claims with authority how they think things are, or should be, its hard for a thread not to devolve into a meta-discussion. It's not necessarily a bad thing, I guess, but it certainly is expected when thoughtful, rational opinion is replaced with rhetoric.
Those that are willing to keep an open mind and look at the evidence can see that there is a lot of "junk science" out there about the potentially harmful effects of immunizations. There is clearly much more evidence to show that immunizations help and not harm...the ratio is like putting an elephant next to a gnat. People know that schools have and enforce immunizations for the protection of all students. These things can be discussed, and even debated, but its somewhat pointless at the end of the day.
The bottom-line as I see it is that children (yours and mine) are better with the shots than without, and all credible evidence shows that, and our society is demanding it. Trying to counter this conventional wisdom, practice, and trend will be akin to swimming upstream. Sure, you can do it, but it is so much easier/better when one turns around and swims with the tide.
I recognize my "bottom-line" statement above seems to be me trying to speak my opinion as authority. I guess I am guilty of that. But I don't think this is my opinion...I think it is the current "tide."
TJR
Again, I'm absolutely not against immunizations and I'm not arguing against the science backing their importance. My children will have all physician-recommended immunizations. There are people with religious and other personal reasons for not wanting immunizations. I find it hard to tell those people to just change direction and swim with the tide.
I really don't think so many people are going to opt out of immunizations that a crisis will ensue. Not an expert analysis, just an opinion.
I really don't think so many people are going to opt out of immunizations that a crisis will ensue. Not an expert analysis, just an opinion.
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Hugh,
You don't have to tell people that are against immunizations for whatever reason that they HAVE to get their children immunized. They can choose not to. But within many school districts their children would be barred from attending public school. They still have a choice, but they can't have things both ways.
Most of the rights that we enjoy come with some strings attached. The right to a public education is no different. For many that don't like the restrictions, they simply home school. But even that has strings attached.
A family across the street tried to fight the good fight against the public school system. They essentially "swam upstream" on everything (kids in PE, manner of dress, participation in class, etc, etc) to the point that it became such an issue that the father was barred from the school grounds (he became a nusiance). Then, they homeschooled, but fell behind in all the reporting and curriculum requirements. Then, they almost lost their kids to child welfare because they were not educating them properly. Yada, yada, they are back in school and following "the rules."
A lot of people want to tilt at windmills.
TJR
You don't have to tell people that are against immunizations for whatever reason that they HAVE to get their children immunized. They can choose not to. But within many school districts their children would be barred from attending public school. They still have a choice, but they can't have things both ways.
Most of the rights that we enjoy come with some strings attached. The right to a public education is no different. For many that don't like the restrictions, they simply home school. But even that has strings attached.
A family across the street tried to fight the good fight against the public school system. They essentially "swam upstream" on everything (kids in PE, manner of dress, participation in class, etc, etc) to the point that it became such an issue that the father was barred from the school grounds (he became a nusiance). Then, they homeschooled, but fell behind in all the reporting and curriculum requirements. Then, they almost lost their kids to child welfare because they were not educating them properly. Yada, yada, they are back in school and following "the rules."
A lot of people want to tilt at windmills.
TJR
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I simply have my doubts that the low number of unimmunized children, and documented as such, really pose that great of risk to a public school population. The very fact that there are exceptions allowed in some districts and we haven't heard of any school districts being decimated by deadly diseases because one family didn't immunize their three children supports my theory. Just my opinion.
Now, if only we could find a way to eradicate lice.
Now, if only we could find a way to eradicate lice.
