In The News: U.S. Automakers Battle Public Bias

[Thomas Rogers]

Read all about it at the link below.



I especially liked this quote:

The problem for Detroit is changing perceptions that often don't match reality.

I like that because it goes back to debates on this board about the reality vs. the perception of reliability and quality. I have been of the opinion that reality is in of itself subjective, and that the only true reality is defined by perception. People know what real is by their perception, by what they hear, feel, and experience. So for them perception defines reality.



The article and everything I have experienced is reflective of the assertion that over the past few decades American car mfgrs have narrowed the gap in quality and reliability between their product and the products of their foreign competitors. That gap may very well be almost closed.



Again, back to old sayings: "Once bitten, twice shy!", and "Fool me once, shame on you. Fool me twice, shame on me!" Meaning, that even if the gaps is narrow, it STILL only takes one or two instances or incidents with a vehicle and the consumer assumes the worst and remembers the past; and if those experiences and incidents are amplified by poor customer service, then it's even worse.



Put another way, I fear that for many American consumers they see a defect in a Toyota and they say say "Oh, that's just an isolated incident.", but that same consumer gets the same defect in a Ford and they cry: "See! Same old crap!"



Is it fair? Doesn't matter. Is it reality? Again, doesn't matter. It's the way most people are programmed to think through their experiences.



Which all means that to pay for "sins of the past" the American car companies have to be BETTER than the imports when it comes to reliability, quality and service. "As good as..." is not "good enough!"



TJR

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Reality: I owned two 2004 STs. The first I traded at 35,988 miles due to the tranny flair that Ford refused to fix, because "they couldn't duplicate it". It was pretty much problem-free otherwise. My second ST had the following issues: broken heater switch on passenger seat, leaking gasket on front differential, chattering wiper blades from day one, camber and tire cupping issues within 9,000 miles, squeaky bushing in swaybar end links, bouncy shocks, faulty headlight housing (fogged up), crack vacuum elbow, cracking leather on steering wheel. This doesn't even count the poor gas mileage. All issues on the second ST were fixed under warranty, except for the steering wheel, shocks and cracked elbow.



Perception (based on my experience): Sport Tracs (a Ford product) are high-maintenance and problem prone.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Nelson, please don't confuse the thread with a post about facts and reality. I was looking for opinions and bias.



Seriously though, you document a lot of issues, but I suspect many here will say the imports have the same types of problems.



Let's see where it goes.



TJR

 

[user 62394]

I would look at that as "It takes years to gain someones trust, but seconds to lose it."



The point in the article that I latched on to was the statement about resale value for the foreign vehicles being higher than American. I think that goes right back to TJR's point above about perception. That resale value is living off of the original perception of Japanese quality, whether right or wrong.



TJR asked for opinions above, so mine is that some of the Japanese do engineer a better car. This is based on my experience in working at automotive suppliers. Through various jobs, I have worked with GM, Ford, Nissan, Toyota, Honda, & Subaru. From what I have seen, Toyota & Honda are way ahead of all of them. They do things the right way the first time, and decisions are not made purely on what is cheaper. Nissan is very similar to Ford and GM. Subaru -- well, I'm surprised Subaru manages to actually build a car.



That is my humble two cents worth.



(The edit was to respond to TJR's resquest for opinions which was posted while I was typing my oringinal message)



Rocks



Rocks

 

[Dale Carlson]

TJR said:

I have been of the opinion that reality is in of itself subjective, and that the only true reality is defined by perception.

So does that mean you don't believe in the reality of numbers - of performance/production-based measurements or metrics? For example: Is it subjective to compare the number of (reported) first-year defects of comparable vehicles from different manufacturers from different countries?



That reality seems pretty objective to me.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Kefguy said:

So does that mean you don't believe in the reality of numbers .

I absolutely believe in the reality of numbers, of math, and of hard science.



But, again, here are a few old sayings:

Figures don't lie, but liars figure.



and



Statistics don't lie. Statisticians do!

Do I trust the statistics? Sure, but only to a certain degree.



Regardless, you missed my point. Even if all quality and reliability is the same, both domestics and imports will have the same degree of defects, and once that happens, the consumer is left with the perception of which provides the better customer service and their bias as to that defect with regards to past experiences and perceptions.



Kefguy also asked:

For example: Is it subjective to compare the number of (reported) first-year defects of comparable vehicles from different manufacturers from different countries?

Yes, that could be a subjective indicator of overall quality. Why is it subjective? Because of the word "reported". It is quite possible that those that purchase domestic have a higher tolerance (because of bias) for certain types of imperfections and defects, and therefore they don't take their vehicles in for service during the first year and get them reported. I know there have been defects that have TSBs associated with on my ST that I haven't had my dealer deal with....just not worth the hassle.



Yes, the statistics themselves are factual and objective, but their meaning as an overal indicator of quality is where things get subjective (cloudy).



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Hoss351 states:

I've noticed NOK bashes american vehicles whenever the occasion arises......especially

the ST

Yeah, Hoss, that's one of the nice things about this website. They allow all kinds. For example, those that have and those that haven't drank the Kool-Aid.



Some have expressed that only those enthusiasts that are "favorable" to the ST should be allowed on the site. I understand that point of view.



But I say there is a fine line between critical and unfavorable, and we should WELCOME people that are critical of a vehicle, because it is through criticism that we obtain positive growth and change.



TJR

 

[Dale Carlson]

If I'm following this then, this is akin to the perceptions that, say, a witness to an accident or a crime may have. People in law enforcement and the justice system will tell you that human eyewitnesses historically provide the worst sort of evidence - as opposed to something like video tape.



So when it comes down to it, and despite what they say in the article, I understand that I have biases, and look at the data before making high-dollar purchases. For example, when they started coming out with mid-size four-door trucks, I looked at all of the data available. I didn't like the Nissan Frontier because of objective criteria like body width, back-seat room, and other things like that. I did like the Sport Trac and the Dodge Dakota because they did have wider bodies, and more back-seat room, among other things. What was not measurable at the time was reliability because the trucks were too new. To be honest with you, the thought of (possibly) greater reliability coming from the import never entered my head - because it wasn't proven, either good or bad.



I guess all that's to say, that I'm not sure that American automakers give me (or people like me in this respect) enough credit when it comes to spending our hard-earned dollars.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Truc Trac,



I just took a quick look at the threads I've posted in the last 60 days. Almost all were completely off-topic. I found three that I made some potentially negative posts before today's threads. Most of my on-topic posts were replies to requests for information. Since I've owned two STs and driven them a total of around 90,000 miles, I have a bit of experience with the good things and the bad things regarding Sport Tracs.



I may occasionally post negative things about the Sport Trac or Ford, but I do care about their products. In fact, I would love to still have my ST, but the fuel expense was killing my budget. If I didn't care, I would have no reason to stick around here. I hope when I return to the US, there will be a new Ford product available that I'd like in my garage. IMO, Ford ruined the NEW ST for off-road use, so that isn't an option for me.



When I do criticize, I try to be constructive, or just post the facts for others to see, and make their own decisions. In the post above, I did make a statement regarding my perception of the ST, but I backed it with a rather lengthy list of issues I had with my trucks. That is my perception, based on my experience. If you find the list of issues I had to be acceptable, then your perception will differ from mine.

 

[tom prudhomme]

I hope when I return to the US, there will be a new Ford product available that I'd like in my garage

Depends on how long you're gone, there may not even be a Ford company in existence.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Mazda will still be here. Maybe they will own Ford then.

 

[TomT]

To me it's a matter of "putting your money where your mouth is". If American manufactures are saying they are building better, more reliable vehicles than lets see some 5 year, 60k warranties.

 

[Rick Kent]

In the 70's Japanese autos were commonly thought of as crap. The was offset by the fact that they were significantly less expensive than US made cars. They also achieved significantly better gas mileage.



Over the course of time they improved quality while maintaining a good price point that in many instances were cheaper than US models.



If Ford and GM want to compete in the long run they need to build a quality product and undercut the Japanese. Frankly able to beat the competition on price is their biggest problem.



People will shop price then get hooked on the quality just like in the 70s.

 

[A K]

Subaru -- well, I'm surprised Subaru manages to actually build a car.

Oy, everyone gets their shots. Family has owned 7 of them throughout the last three decades. Only problem before 150,000 miles was rust on the body. And, this only occurred on one from the 80s.



The newest, a 2005 Turbo GT Limited, is flawless.



Though I have a Trac, I still respect those little rockets.

 

[tom prudhomme]

If American manufactures are saying they are building better, more reliable vehicles than lets see some 5 year, 60k warranties.

Five years!!! You're pretty optimistic that there will be a domestic nameplate around that long. Maybe Chrysler & 2 divisions of GM. I can't understand the reasoning of people spending 5 figures on a product from a company (ford) that has lost or will lose half their job force. The workers have got to have a don't give a crap attitude.



And of course that feces creek runs down hill too, to the suppliers who are laying off employees or closing the doors altogether. I wouldn't buy a ford now if the whole line of vehicles were priced at 50% off. A manufacturer can't cut costs w/o cutting quality.

 

[blksn8k]

In my case I suppose there are several reasons why I continue to buy Ford products even in the face of perceived reality.



First of all, I am brand loyal to a fault and I don't give a crap what other people think. It's my choice and it's my money. It makes me happy. Some people are addicted to alcohol or tobacco. I'm addicted to Fords. What can I say?



Secondly, I hold grudges like an elephant. If a company uses or has used unfair trade practices to gain an advantage I tend to remember crap like that. That includes things like foreign government business subsities and manipulation of currency rates.



I also see the US auto industry in the same light as the US electronics industry, the US appliance industry, etc., etc. I happen to care that at some point in the not too distant future it will be virtually impossible to find a manufacturing job in this country where you actually work for an American company. Obviously there are a lot of people in this country who don't consider that a problem. I'm just not one of them.



You can call me old school or whatever. The fact is I don't give a rat's butt. As long as I have a choice I will continue buying my perceived junk and I will sleep just fine.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

BUMP and related article today:





Japan Carmakers Nervously Continue U.S. Charge



Read the whole article at the link below.



I found this excerpt interesting especially given blksn8k's comments:

"The growing notion is that things are different now because Japanese automakers are increasing their local production ratio," said Tatsuo Yoshida, a Tokyo-based auto analyst at UBS Securities. "But if this keeps up for Toyota, they won't be able to use that excuse any more."



Yoshida noted that much of Toyota's U.S. growth was being driven by models built only or mainly in Japan, such as the Yaris subcompact, Lexus line of luxury cars and its hybrid vehicles, meaning imports could remain high again this year.

TJR

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Yeah, I really didn't need a truck. My Mazda is just fine.



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[Thomas Rogers]

We've had this discussion before, but most don't really need a truck until they "need it".



Likewise many "needs" aren't necessary but are instead desires. Does one really NEED to haul a big screen TV, or a friends hay bales, or a camper a few weekends a year? Nope, those aren't "needs", but it sure is nice to be able to do those things.



TJR

 

[Nelson Atwell]

So true. One thing I did haul in the Mazda 3 is a new screen door from Lowes. I laid the seats down and was able to close the hatch. I could not have hauled that same door in the ST without leaving the tailgate or tonneau open. I've also hauled 10 bags of cedar mulch. The car smelled like a pine forest for a few days, but it worked great.