It Ain't Right

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Mike Wilson

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9.8 Billion "Profit" in this quarter alone?!?! (110 Billion Total Sales/Revenue, B.P., ALONE!)

While I'm having trouble, as many of you are, paying our (my) basic monthly bills?

It ain't right, It ain't right, no, it just ain't right!!!

Billion with a "B"! Yes, with a "B"!!!.

Gimme, "Us",a break!

Oh, forgive me, for I "digress".

Oh, forgive me!!!

And I get 21 mpg in my trac!!!

:wacko:



 
$108,888,888 profit per day

$1250.00 profit per minute.





Tom
 
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Oh, Gee, Tom,

Rub it in why don'tcha!!!

Did I mention that was Billion with a "B"?

Oh, yes, I did...

Sorry!

And do you notice, anyone, that they don't even have to advertise on T.V.

At least not that I have seen lately?!?!

When was the last time anyone here remembers seeing an advertisement on

t.v. for a gas station?

About 20 years ago, at least, for me!:wacko:
 
Well... not to defend BP or anything, but that is their TOTAL PROFIT. BP makes a lot more then just gas...



If you go download their entire Third Quarter release:

http://www.bp.com/genericarticle.do?categoryId=717&contentId=7010517



The part that matters to us, is look at page 9, "Customer Facing Segments".



Their total profit before interests and taxes was 314 million. This is WORLDWIDE not just the US.



Just below that it shows their Gas Sales Volumes. Worldwide total of 34,741 mmcf/d. Out of which 15,552 is from the US. Just less than 45%.



Which means, of the 314 million, 45% is from the US. (this is an estimate, because they may actually profit more off of Gas sold in other countries due to costs of delivery and etc being higher in the US.) But anyways, as a guess, only 141.3 million in profit from Gas sold in the US. That does not sound as horrible as 9.8 billion, not as bad, but wait until you compare it to last year.



ExxonMobil is the other one that had quarterly profits of around 10 billion:

http://home.businesswire.com/portal/site/exxonmobil/index.jsp?epi-content=GENERIC&newsId=20051027005507&ndmHsc=v2*A1072962000000*B1130615615000*C4102491599000*DgroupByDate*J2*N1001106&newsLang=en&beanID=2030803304&viewID=news_view



But their release is not as nice as BP's. They only break it down into Upstream / Downstream profits per country. According to their website, Downstream is everything they refine out of oil, everything from heavy fuels, diesel, gasoline, polymers, motor oils, etc...

In the US their Downstream profits were 1.109 billion.



The only thing I could find, was that they were selling 3,335 kbd in the US. But nowhere do they specify how much they profit per barrel.



So unless someone can find how much ExxonMobil profitted off each barrel sold in the US, or some other notice about profits from US sales in Gas, I am guessing they probably made around the same as BP, about 200 million.



If you think that is taking you for a ride, look at how much your Credit Card companies are making off of people.



CitiCards (a division of Citigroup) in North America alone (US and Canada) brought in 1.003 billion in profit.

http://www.citigroup.com/citigroup/press/2005/051017a.htm



And that is with a 6% decrease from 3rd quarter 2004.



Did you know that most of your Gas credit cards, like your exxonmobil or texaco card are actually provided by companies like CitiCards. So ExxonMobil is not making money off the interest every month when you buy gas on your credit card, CitiCards or some other company is.



Citigroups Profit for the 3rd Quarter - 7.143 billion - up 35% from 3rd Quarter Last Year

BP 3rd Quarter - 9.871 billion - up 53% from 3rd Quarter Last Year

BP Profits from global gas sales - 314 million - up about 1064.56% from 3rd Quarter Last Year

ExxonMobil Profit from Downstream 3rd Quarter - 1.109 billion - up about 10,000% from 3rd Quarter Last Year



Considering Exxon's Downstream includes far more than just gasoline, I would look more at BP's numbers which are nicely broken down on their financial press release...



Either way, yes this year the Gas companies have made a huge profit. But at what cost to themselves? for the first time we saw that supply and demand does apply to gas; when the price per gallon got over $3.00 the demand dropped. Price has now swung the other way, in my neighborhood gas has dropped to $2.03 a gallon. For a long time the gas companies could slowly increase the price every year, decrease it a little before winter, then next summer raise it back up. This cycle has been going on for decades. And not until now had they hit a point where consumers would not take it and forced prices back down.



How long will it last? How long before consumers have become complaciant again and will allow the companies t
 
Fizban,



I'm not into all of that "higher math" thing. All I know is that "They" are

making wicked, nasty profits, at the expense of us all!!!

I appreciate your research into this, and I thank you for letting me vent

my frustrations on this subject!

:)

 
Fizban,

While I don't disagree with your numbers, I do disagree with having states regulate the price of gas. Remeber that Sales Taxes from Gasoline sales is a major cash cow and source of tremendous revenue for those states. The Gas companies will just sell more of their gas in other states that have little or no price restrictions, and the customer gets stuck and the state looses revenue. Realize that some of these oil companies are richer than these states. In fact they are richer than many countries!



In Texas we have a State Insurance Commission, and a State Utility Commission, and in both cases we have some of the highest home insurance rates in the nation and the utilities are constantly raising the rates. The Utility Commission approves so many of these rate increases that some utilities increase the rates before they are even approved and say they will rebate the money if the increase is not approved, which never happens because the rate increases are always approved.



Besides the rate per kilowatt hour of electricity, the electric utility companies can charge a co-generation fee based on what additional cost there were in generating the electricity especially when they use gas fired boilers/turbines to generate that electicity.



A few years a go all the insurance companies raised the home owners insurance rates by about 50% and reduced the coverage for water damage and mold. The State insurance Commission cracked down on a few companies they thought were gouging customers and tried to fine Farmer's Insurance Company. So Farmer's Ins just dropped all their home owners policies an refused to renew or write any more Home Owner insurance! This put a lot of home owners in a bind since they could not all be picked up by other insurance companies because the insurance companies have to have a specific ratio of assets to handle the additional liability and most could not handle that many extra customers.



IN the end the State caved in and did not assess fines against Farmers Insurance and the company continued to renew and write home owners insurance, but it was never published as to whether Farmers Insurance lowered their rates?



If anything is done, it is going to have to be at the federal level.



...Rich
 
"When was the last time anyone here remembers seeing an advertisement on

t.v. for a gas station?"



not really a station but i see BP commercials all the time on my TV.
 
Rich,



I would prefer no regulation. The system as it is ultimatly works. Prices sky rocketed for a while, and finally hit the limit. They are now coming back down, way down. It is part of a cycle that will continue. The prices will continue to stay low, maybe increase a little this winter, and then during the summer, like every year when demand is higher the prices will rise. In the winter when demand shrinks the prices come down.



However, IF the government decides to dip their paws into it, the Federal government will only make it worse. The federal government is far more susceptible to corruption and lobbying. Any organization set up by the Federal Government would not be ultimatly controlled by the public. It would be a board made up of people selected by Congress and Senate, if the board is not made part of the Senate and Congress all together.



How often is a Congressman or Senator not re-elected because they go against their constituents?



If left to the State, it would be either a publicly elected board, or one within the State's senates. This ultimatly is much more closely controlled through public elections. The State would not rule through Taxes.



Say your state rep voted to raise gas prices by $ .50 per gallon, or a board that the US Congress appointed allowed gas prices to be raised by $ .50 per gallon. If this raise was not supported by the majority of voters, which, the state or federal rep would be more likely to not get elected next election?



The utility commission in Texas may not work perfectly, but it does work better then other States, and even with the rubber stamping of most raises we still have some of the lowest utility costs in the country.



Comparing gas to insurance just doesn't work. Comparing it to the utility system would be a much better analogy. Due to the way Insurance companies work, they could probably pull out of a State all together and continue to make profit. The major oil companies could not effectively due this as long as the States are required to allow the gas companies to make a minimum set profit. If they stopped selling gas in any one state, that gas would stockpile somewhere because demand will not just suddenly increase in another state. Now, what happens when the oil companies start building a surplus because they sell less in one state due to price restrictions. To get rid of their surplus they must lower prices to artificially increase demand. If they are forced to lower their prices anyway, why stop selling in one State, when it would only cause them to eventually lower prices elsewhere to get rid of the surplus. Gas that is sitting in a storage tank does not make the company any money (but does cost them a bunch to store thanks to the EPA), and we all know that gas left sitting for so long begins to loose effectiveness.



Even if the States effectively rubber stamped price increases, the oil companies would not be able to increase them the way they do now, day by day. They would be forced to at least approach the government and go through the red tape every time. Even if the State always says yes, or is always willing to negotiate, it forces the increases to happen over longer periods of time and not as quick as they are now.



Gas prices this last quarter shot up over the fear of loss of production due to the Hurricanes. However, even if they did lose some production this would not have actually effected the companies for months. The prices were raised in order to curtail the loss they would take eventually. Since the Hurricanes ended up not being that bad, and production was not effected as much as previously feared, and hitting the wall of demand, the oil companies have lowered the price back down. With a State organization, even one that rubber stamped most raises they would have at least made the oil companies wait to see if the damage was actually done prior t
 
Please leave the Gov out of this. They always screw up when they regulate. If the price of gas is that hurtful, then people WILL buy gas efficient cars. There WILL be an incentive for alternate fuels ( Alcohol is not really one of them. Its a farm subsidy). Vote with your wallet and things will change.



Maybe we should regulate doctor, hospital, and other fees. Maybe your salary. I don't think so. Let the market decide as long as there is no monopolies allowed.
 
More oil needs to be found and then refined. Yes, there is a limited supply of oil. How limited, no one knows for sure. How much oil exploration takes place on the West coast ?? Would they allow a new refinery there ????



I live on the Gulf Coast. Plenty of fish are alive and well; even with the wells off shore. We have several oil refineries, and chemical plants, throughout the region. Flowers still grow and birds still sing.



The cost of gas is an enigma. It rises with the global price of a barrel of oil; but will also drop when the cost of a barrel drops. I do not understand how the price of gas is so uniform over the country. I live where the gas is made and still pay the same as everyone else.



Supply and Demand is a TRUTH. While evacuating Rita, in the traffic jams of all traffic jams, I paid $40.00 for 5 gallons of gas while stuck on the interstate, and out of gas. This gas was a five gallon can in the back of a pickup passing me at 1 MPH. I offered and he sold it to me. I was not about to be stuck there, and not move on, and was willing to pay. Was I stupid for paying that much, yes. Would I do it again, yes. I kept moving while others did not.



I cringe at the thought of Federal Goverment intervention. Paying for gas is an option that everyone makes. If it is too expensive then drive less.



Check year to year percent increases in gas vs. medical costs. A person can spend his life savings to try to remain healthy (even with insurance). It would take a lot longer to drive that savings away.



Terry



Terry



 
A pretty good explantion of oil company profits from Neal Boortz:

THOSE EVIL OIL COMPANIES AND THEIR PROFITS



There has been much wailing and gnashing of teeth in the last week or so over the reports from major oil companies of increased profits. These reports have given many Americans the opportunity to exhibit their total ignorance when it comes to matters economic. For this we can thank our wonderful government schools, where basic education in economics is, for all practical purposes, non-existent.



October survey shows that 72% have an unfavorable opinion of oil companies. In the Sunday "Vent" in the Atlanta Journal-Constitution several of Atlanta's more poorly educated citizens chimed in with their thoughts on oil companies and their profits:



"When do the oil company profits for the quarter become proof of price gouging?"



"Oil company profits show we have been hosed."



Oil company profits can not in and of themselves be proof of price gouging, neither can they be proof that we've been "hosed." Once again the "Vent" serves as a platform from which people can demonstrate their ignorance.



Now .. just what have we read about oil company earnings. Generally, we've read that oil company profits are up. This, if you read the public opinion polls, is evidence of evil. How dare the oil companies allow their profits to go up? Now .. a little test. Ask someone in your office, school ... whatever ... what the difference is between profits and profit margins. See if they can come up with an answer. Simply put, your profits are the money that's left over from gross revenues after you pay the costs of doing business. Profit margins are the percentage of gross revenues that are left over after you pay those costs. I would bet you five bucks against a stale donut that 95% of seniors in our illustrious government high schools couldn't tell you the difference between the two ... and it will be those 95% who are screaming bloody murder about oil company profits.



Now ... for those of you who went to government schools, let's expand on the explanation. Let's say that the total gross revenues for a company for one year equal $1,000,000. That's a million bucks. This company spends $930,000 to bring in that million. The difference between the one million and the $930,000 is $70,000. That's your profit. Divide the $70,000 by the one million and you get 0.07, or 75. That's your profit margin. Now let's say that the very next year the company sells twice as much product the second year and brings in two million bucks. Let's also say that the cost of making those products doubles as well .. to $1,860,000. How much money did you have left over? Those of you who went to government schools get out your calculators .. the rest of you can figure it out in your head. You have $140,000 left over. That's your profit.



Wait! Your profits have doubled! How dare you? What are you doing, price gouging? These are excess profits -- windfall profits -- and the government ought to step in immediately and take them away from you, you greedy capitalist pig!



Hold on ... before we get carried away with our little price gouging rant here, let's grab those calculators again. Divide the $140,000 in profits by the $2,000,000 in gross receipts and what do we have? Why, it seems the answer is once again 0.07, or 7%! The profits have doubled, but the profit margin remains exactly the same!



The problem here is that, thanks to the hideous education the vast majority of Americans have received at the hands of the government, few people know the difference between a profit and a profit margin. Whey they read that oil company profits have gone up they have no educational basis upon which to balance the fact that oil company revenues have also gone up ... thanks to the increase in the price of crude oil. Revenues go up. Profits go up.<s
 
Q says:
Anyways, what tracnblack is saying is that he doesn't want to understand how econmics work and how companies make profits, all he sees isthe "billion" number and that's all he needs to condemn the entire industry and the US capitalism philosophy. It's called uneducated and therefore unwarranted criticism



So people have to have an economics background to be able to have a worthy opinion as to whether or not "Big Oil" is greedy and profitting from people's misery?



I value all opinions each to different degrees; and I agree that oil companies should make as much profit as they legally can, and moreso ethically can. However, when companies become so big that there is little competition, when they collude to drive up prices, or when they turn human suffering into obscene profits then I have a problem with that (though I am NOT saying or implying that has happened here), but clearly Congress wants to know if such things have happened.



There was a price increase FRENZY after Katrina and it wasn't warranted, that I am fairly sure of.



TJR
 
There was a price increase FRENZY after Katrina and it wasn't warranted, that I am fairly sure of.



Gas prices were already beginning to rise prior to Katrina due to increased demand leading into Labor Day weekend. Katrina just exacerbated the situation. Look at what has happened in the last few weeks. As demand has dropped, more refineries have come back on line, and Gulf rigs and ports have re-opened, gas prices have dropped.



Just where do you draw the line at how much profit is "obscene"? And who is the one to determine just how much is "too much" profit?



Here's an interesting parallell: Movie tickets cost anywhere between $7 and $10, even more in some parts of the country. We hear of movie studios raking in $100 million or more in profits on some big blockbuster movies. Yet, we don't hear anything in the media about "obscene" profits, or price gouging by the studios. Nor do we see any calls from politicians for investigations or price regulations on movies.



Nope, the evil big oil companies are the only ones who charge way too much for their product and are out to do nothing but rob us hard-working Americans of our money...
 
TrainTrac. It's called peer to peer. I download a movie and decide if I want to pay the $7 to go see it in a theater. If there was a way for me to steal gas without any real risk to myself, I might.
 
TrainTrac,



Good points. I also don't need to buy a movie ticket to go to work. I don't have to buy a movie ticket to provide heat to stay warm and healthy. I dont have to buy a movie ticket to cook my food to sustain my life.



Entertainment is totally different then something you need to live. I go to maybe 1 movie a year. My number 1 reason for not going to movie's frankly, there aren't many out there that sparks my intrest.



Imagine Elecric costs rising 3 fold. Then we hear about the record profits they are making.





Tom
 
TrainTrac,



Good points. I also don't need to buy a movie ticket to go to work. I don't have to buy a movie ticket to provide heat to stay warm and healthy. I dont have to buy a movie ticket to cook my food to sustain my life.



Entertainment is totally different then something you need to live. I go to maybe 1 movie a year. My number 1 reason for not going to movie's frankly, there aren't many out there that sparks my intrest.



Imagine Elecric costs rising 3 fold. Then we hear about the record profits they are making.





Tom
 
Note, TrainTrac, I never said those were specifically my viewpoints (e.g. obscene profits), but I instead was trying to play devil's advocate.



I did state, however, that it seemed to me that the FRENZY was unnatural. If it were TRULY supply and demand based, then it seems to me we shouldn't have seen price increases of 60¢ and 75¢ a gallon over a single day or two...the supply can't possibly change that much, and the demand hadn't increased (there was no hoarding going on or increased gas lines near me anyway) in that short of a time period.



It seemed to me that suppliers had the excuse they needed (Katrina) and an uncertainty factor with regards to closed refineries and they exploited that. In hindsight, I think the price increases we saw were speculative towards a worst case and too dramatic. I say that because, again it appears to me, that no real change in the supply chain hit us, at least not a dramatic one that was long-term...as is evidenced by the slow but steady drop to more "realistic" prices over the past few months.



It appears to me that it was a panic/exploitive rise in price that wasn't necessarily rooted in true supply cuts. Of course, one can make the case that increased prices due to speculative supply problems in the future are natural and not evil. Sure, I can agree with that. But only to a certain degree.



I could be wrong, but that's my suspicion and opinion.



TJR
 
TJR,



I wasn't speaking specifcially towards you or your comments. I was generalizing about the fact that pretty much every time oil companies publish their quarterly or other periodic profit reports, they're bombarded by the media and everyone else. Aren't they allowed to make any profit? If so, then I'll ask again, where is the line drawn at "too much" profit, and who makes that determination?:huh:



I thought that in a capitalist, free-market economy such as ours, profit was a good thing, and there were no limits on profit. That's what causes such an economy to grow. As far as I knew, viewing profit as a bad thing and government intervention/regulation of pricing and profit stagnates and/or causes an economy to self-destruct. (see the former Soviet Union).
 
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Profits are good!



Monopolies that can exploit things like natural disasters as an excuse to raise prices and thus increase profits are bad.



I am more complaining about the exploitation aspect. I don't think the increases that we saw, at the levels we saw, were warranted by true supply and demand; and since there is no real high level of competition, there is no ability for a "nice guy" oil company to be pro-consumer and keep prices low or more steady during such times.



That's the way I see it. If that makes me a Communist then I think you are projecting more about my comments than I am intending.



TJR
 
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