Kollyfornia Strikes Again....

[TrainTrac]

MOST of the founding fathers were RELIGIOUS.

Never said that they weren't religious men. Just trying to clarify for the folks who keep espousing that the country was based on Judeo-Christian philosophy. In actuality, the founders (especially Thomas Jefferson) looked to Greek philosophers, the Magna Carta, and John Locke among others for inspiration. That's not to say that they weren't religious in their own way, they just weren't Christians by definition.



Do some research on the Age of Enlightenment and Deism as related to the Founding Fathers and the founding of America and you'll find out more.

 

[Rich Stern]

I know people are passionate about this topic, but please follow the posting guidelines. Leave out the profanity and personal attacks, or I will remove your posts.

 

[Rich Stern]

So, a couple of people weren't Christian by whoever's definition. The point is that this country was first founded by, and then architected by people, who used their religious morals and values, MOST of whom WERE CHRISTIANS, as a foundation of our countries forming documents. Spin it all you want, and get all of the anti-religious interpretations you want. This means that this country IS based on judeo-Christian principles. For example, 97% of the founding fathers were CHRISTIANS. 187 of the 200 first American colleges were Christian...shall I go on? SO what if a handful of people weren't 100% clearly Christians. BFD! WHat are you trying to push here? Sounds like a bunch of hoo-ha!

Q, yes, they were Christians, but having been persecuted for years by a country heavily dominated by a politically entrenched church, they set out to design a system where that wouldn't happen.



In other words, they set aside their own beliefs to create a secular system of government. That's why the the Constitution has no reference to anybody's religion or god, and contains statements that clearly indicate government is not to be in the religion promoting business.



Read some Ben Franklin or Thomas Jefferson quotes on the issue, and you will see that they were very concerned about religion influencing civil government.

 

[TrainTrac]

Q,



I'm not trying to push or spin anything, just stating historical fact. Nor am I anti-religious. If you take the time to research history and learn about the Age of Enlightenment and the Deism movement, you'll find that most of the Founding Fathers did in fact consider themselves to be Deists and not Christians. If you read the essay by Thomas Paine (author of Common Sense) that I linked above, you'll find that he gives different definitions for Deism and Christianity. These definitions can also be found in any dictionary. Based on these definitions and their very own writings, it's safe to say that most of the Founding Fathers considered themselves to be Deists. However, the common link between the two is a belief in God.

187 of the 200 first American colleges were Christian

I'm aware that most all of the Ivy League universites were first established as religious institutions for the training of minister/preachers. These were founded long before the Age of Enlightenment and the Revolution, when religion had a very strong influence on society and government. Many of the colonial governments could almost have been considered theocracies. What were the other universites in this list of 200? Not trying to be sarcastic, I'm just curious because I'm a history buff. Living in VA for the last nine years has sparked my interest in the colonization of America and the Revolution.

This means that this country IS based on judeo-Christian principles.

If you could be more specific, to what judeo-Christian principles are you referring?



As I said above, historical fact shows that when setting out to establish this great nation, the Founders relied heavily on the writings of Greek philosophers such as Plato, John Locke, and the Magna Carta. If you read some of these works, or the writings of men such as Franklin, Jefferson, Paine, Madison, Hamilton, John Adams, Samuel Adams, or Washington, you can clearly see these influences.



I had the opportunity to tour Monticello this summer, and right in the parlor were three portraits of what Jefferson considered "the three greatest men who ever lived": John Locke, Isaac Newton, and Francis Bacon.

 

[Mark Grumpy]

R Shek

Amazing. Tolerance from the LEFT is as non-existant as their views of the RIGHT TO CHOOSE.

I may have interpreted incorrectly, but based on all your words prior to this line, are you implying all Atheists and Agnostics are "Left"? If so, please review Websters definition of left, I just did, just to be sure, and then review my previous post. I don't quite see how being an admitted atheist equates to being a radical or indicates an attempt to overthrow or reform politics.

If that is not your implication then I misinterpreted.



God bless everyone. I capitilize His name out of respect, not out of belief. Because that is the accepted way. I believe the Commandments should remain prominently displayed outside the Texas State Capitol. They don't hurt me one bit. You can change the motto on my money, or not. Point being, not all Atheists are out to change religion or religious viewpoints. Please don't associate one nut with an entire group.



thanks and cheers.



grump

 

[Bill V]

Grumpy--



Maybe he was trying to bash left-handed people. Now I'm insulted!!!

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

I do not mean to infer atheists are lefties, or that lefties are leftists. I realize that many of you are centrist, conservative or otherwise non-liberal. (BTW, my mom, grandmother and uncle are left handed :lol:.) I simply point out the hypocracy of the liberalism movement:



Choice is only weither to abort a baby, not the choice of schools via vouchers or to say or not say "Under God". The only people who can choose to own guns are the politicians and their body guards. The only people who can choose if gay marriage is acceptible are unaccountable judges.



By tolerance, the only tolerance that the left seems to want is the tolerance of homosexuality and race (but only when the victim is black or hispanic and the "abusor" is white). Jesse Jackson is not tolerant. Michael Newdow is not tolerant. Ted Kennedy is not tolerant. Al Sharpton is not tolerant (but slightly more so than Jesse Jackson). Kanye West is not tolerant.

 

[Bill V]

R Shek--



YOu have a very interesting twisting of the meaning of 'tolerance' going here...



Just because "the left" (the term you use to conveniently lump all these people together) doesn't want to allow you to mandate evangelism to the masses in no means makes them intolerant. Tolerance, in the context being discussed here, means that you get to have your beliefs, and that you tolerate and respect the beliefs of others. It does not mean that you get to have government-led indoctrination of your beliefs upon others, nor does it mean that we have to tolerate acts by others that are themselves intolerant.



If you look at the generalized "left" stance on this, yes, there are some hypocracies--gun control, for example. Just as there are hypocracies on the right. That's why it's so important that everyone look at every situation--and every individual--independently.

 

[David Crockett]

Damn!...Still smoldering after this many posts!!! And to think, this is a site dedicated to Sport Tracs!!! The sad thing with america these days is that everyone is entitled to everyone elses opinion.....



DD

 

[Gypsy me]

I see you all were having fun over the weekend!



I FINALLY went to Sedona AZ oh I checked out some indian ruins. That was so cool!



You all should come out sometime and see it all

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

The ruins of th Anizazi tribes are pretty neat.... I was there 10 years ago or so (16-17 years old with family)... Can't wait to take my kids back.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Shamanism -- America's original religion.

 

[Gypsy me]

Shaman, I've met a couple in my lifetime.



life is good