Martin Luckett
Member
Bottom Line......... Just be responsible for your own actions. No more no less.
Lebanon evacuation question
- Thread starter Bill V
- Start date
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shawn stonbraker 2
Well-Known Member
Kefguy, whatever man. I don't know how you compare terrorists to natural disasters. It's not the same in my book. I will agree to disagree with you on this one. I'm done.
Dale Carlson
Active Member
It's an analogy. Sorry, if I didn't make the point clearly. The point is that your opinion of the evacuation is at least partially formed based on your perception that the entire Middle East is a danger zone created and run by terrorists (and therefore, American people shouldn't go there). My feeling is that unless you've been to a place, then your perceptions and opinions about that place can be formed by one-sided and narrowly-focused media coverage. Real people live in Lebanon. I've never been there, but I'd bet that 99.999% of them are NOT terrorists. But their lives aren't all that newsworthy, or I guess, worthy of your attention.
"Parochialism" - look it up.
"Parochialism" - look it up.
shawn stonbraker 2
Well-Known Member
I spent a year in Iraq. I know that not all people are terrorists over there. The people that "live" over there don't have a choice. Most were born there. (as many people in the natural disaster areas over here are) If you think for a minute that Terrorists don't run those places over there, you are misguided also. Why do places let them run free? Because if they don't then they have the wrath turned to them. Also, if you think that the "Governments" over there aren't getting money from these buttheads to be able to "disappear" when they need to then whatever. That is your parogative. My veiws are from what I have seen. It may have not been from the conflict currently going on, but I do have first hand knowlege, not media guided knowledge. So if that is me being "parochial" then so be it. I still think that if you go over there to places such as these, do so under your own risk, and do not by any means think that you are safe, and that the good old US of A will come swooping in and save your dumb a** when the stinky brown stuff hits the fan.
Bill V, I am sorry for highjacking your thread when you stated in the beginning you didn't want this to start a political debate. I kindof got it going that way. For that I appologize. From what I've seen when over there during the first Gulf War is still a sore to me that I can't seem to get rid of. Again, my apologies to anyone if I offend you with my remarks on here.
Bill V, I am sorry for highjacking your thread when you stated in the beginning you didn't want this to start a political debate. I kindof got it going that way. For that I appologize. From what I've seen when over there during the first Gulf War is still a sore to me that I can't seem to get rid of. Again, my apologies to anyone if I offend you with my remarks on here.
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Brian Curry
Active Member
Earth ,a nice place to live if it wasn't for human beings
Joe Willey
Member
This may be more information than what you want, but here goes:
Before the tragic civil war that tore Lebanon and Beirut apart and before Lebanon was widely known as a haven for Palestinian terrorist groups, it was considered to be neutral ground…the Switzerland of the Middle East. It was also considered a jewel, if not the jewel, of the Mediterranean. The last religious census (1932) placed the number of Christians at 50% or more of the population (it is now speculated Christians comprise 40% of the population). Until the civil war, Beirut was an important financial and business center for non-Arabs doing business with Arabs. Lebanon’s geographical location makes it a gateway country and Beirut a gateway city.
The 1975-1990 civil war resulted in the destruction of Beirut and exodus of what has been estimated at between 500,000 and 600,000 Lebanese. Syria’s subsequent occupation of Lebanon exacerbated the exodus, primarily among Lebanese Christians. Some of those who left ended up in the U.S. and a percentage of those and all of their children born here are now U.S. Citizens.
Following the civil war, the Lebanese did a fabulous job rebuilding both the country and Beirut. Some of those who fled returned, including some who through Naturalization or birth became U.S. Citizens. It is my guess that a percentage of those who returned, retained their U.S. Citizenship and decided to stay and rebuild their former homeland and revitalize their heritage. (Same thing has happened in Israel.) Between that core group, others who may have left during the civil war but visit relatives there, and others (businessmen, missionaries, students, world travelers, etc) you end up with the 20,000 plus U.S. Citizens estimated to be in Lebanon. Two other factors to consider are 1) until this problem Beirut was considered a playground and R&R site for many who live in other Arab countries, including Americans and 2) time of year---school is out.
I don’t buy allegations American Embassy personnel were unprepared and uncaring. Having been assigned to the American Embassy in Kuwait and actually participated in 2 real mandatory departures of American personnel and 2 other practical exercises, I know all U.S. Embassies in that region have contingency plans for departure (evacuation) situations. I also know those plans are regularly exercised with DOD personnel. It is those who have unrealistic expectations who tend to complain.
Just an FYI in respect to “Evacuation†terminology. There are 3 basic Departure (Evacuation) levels; i.e. Voluntary, Authorized, and Mandatory. The 3 levels signify escalating degrees of concern and have a correlation to benefits paid to U.S. Government employees affected. The embassy involved does not unilaterally decided to announce or evoke a departure order. It is done in coordination with and only when instructed by the Department of State (DOS) in Washington.
Voluntary Departure means dependants are free to depart, but that all relative costs (transportation and living) will be borne by the USG employee. Dependants of USG employees choosing to leave will not be permitted to return until the DOS authorizes a return.
Authorized Departure means dependants can depart and that all relative transportation costs will be paid by the USG. Departing dependants have no restrictions placed on them regarding the amount of luggage they can take and are entitled to an approximately 750 lbs air shipment. Further, departing dependants are entitled to a significant amount of lodging and per diem. Departing dependants cannot return until the DOS authorizes a return. The USG will not pick up the tab nor will they use USG assets to evacuate non-USG American Citizens. When an Authorized Departure is announced, it is a signal to companies and American citizens they should strongly consider departing the country.
Mandatory Departures can involve stages and at a minimum requi
Before the tragic civil war that tore Lebanon and Beirut apart and before Lebanon was widely known as a haven for Palestinian terrorist groups, it was considered to be neutral ground…the Switzerland of the Middle East. It was also considered a jewel, if not the jewel, of the Mediterranean. The last religious census (1932) placed the number of Christians at 50% or more of the population (it is now speculated Christians comprise 40% of the population). Until the civil war, Beirut was an important financial and business center for non-Arabs doing business with Arabs. Lebanon’s geographical location makes it a gateway country and Beirut a gateway city.
The 1975-1990 civil war resulted in the destruction of Beirut and exodus of what has been estimated at between 500,000 and 600,000 Lebanese. Syria’s subsequent occupation of Lebanon exacerbated the exodus, primarily among Lebanese Christians. Some of those who left ended up in the U.S. and a percentage of those and all of their children born here are now U.S. Citizens.
Following the civil war, the Lebanese did a fabulous job rebuilding both the country and Beirut. Some of those who fled returned, including some who through Naturalization or birth became U.S. Citizens. It is my guess that a percentage of those who returned, retained their U.S. Citizenship and decided to stay and rebuild their former homeland and revitalize their heritage. (Same thing has happened in Israel.) Between that core group, others who may have left during the civil war but visit relatives there, and others (businessmen, missionaries, students, world travelers, etc) you end up with the 20,000 plus U.S. Citizens estimated to be in Lebanon. Two other factors to consider are 1) until this problem Beirut was considered a playground and R&R site for many who live in other Arab countries, including Americans and 2) time of year---school is out.
I don’t buy allegations American Embassy personnel were unprepared and uncaring. Having been assigned to the American Embassy in Kuwait and actually participated in 2 real mandatory departures of American personnel and 2 other practical exercises, I know all U.S. Embassies in that region have contingency plans for departure (evacuation) situations. I also know those plans are regularly exercised with DOD personnel. It is those who have unrealistic expectations who tend to complain.
Just an FYI in respect to “Evacuation†terminology. There are 3 basic Departure (Evacuation) levels; i.e. Voluntary, Authorized, and Mandatory. The 3 levels signify escalating degrees of concern and have a correlation to benefits paid to U.S. Government employees affected. The embassy involved does not unilaterally decided to announce or evoke a departure order. It is done in coordination with and only when instructed by the Department of State (DOS) in Washington.
Voluntary Departure means dependants are free to depart, but that all relative costs (transportation and living) will be borne by the USG employee. Dependants of USG employees choosing to leave will not be permitted to return until the DOS authorizes a return.
Authorized Departure means dependants can depart and that all relative transportation costs will be paid by the USG. Departing dependants have no restrictions placed on them regarding the amount of luggage they can take and are entitled to an approximately 750 lbs air shipment. Further, departing dependants are entitled to a significant amount of lodging and per diem. Departing dependants cannot return until the DOS authorizes a return. The USG will not pick up the tab nor will they use USG assets to evacuate non-USG American Citizens. When an Authorized Departure is announced, it is a signal to companies and American citizens they should strongly consider departing the country.
Mandatory Departures can involve stages and at a minimum requi
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
My experience in overseas areas is the same. Each overseas location typically conducts Non-combatant Evacuation Operation (NEO) exercises on a regular basis. The voluntary, authorized and mandatory levels applied where I was also. This is also true for evacuations during natural disasters.
These categories only apply for US govt employees and their families. The general population is not normally included in the arrangements, but if they are evacuated it is a reimbursable service.
These categories only apply for US govt employees and their families. The general population is not normally included in the arrangements, but if they are evacuated it is a reimbursable service.
Ron N
Well-Known Member
Well can I put it plain and simple, we save American *********, too. Why, because they are American *********.
