Letter to George W. Bush

[John Draper]

I really tried to avoid political and religious arguments, but I just can't seem to help myself here. I agree with your immigrant position, that those that sneak under or over the fence should not get preferencial treatment.



I really don't think all democrats are socialist pigs any more than all republicans are fascist pigs. I also think that the majority of the republicans in house and senate share our position on immigration.



I remember an earlier post that stated that Bush was the most battered president in this century. This is true since he is the only president in this century. What really sets him off from all other presidents is that he and the vice president as draft dodgers, knocked out two war heroes to get to the white house.



A lot can be said about Clinton's immoral behavior, but this I do know:

1, the ecomony has never been better (then or since) while he was president.

2, unemployment was never lower

3, we didn't have a deficit that was in the trillions, in fact during the later years of Clinton's presidency we actually had a surplus

4, at no time during his time in office do I ever remember having to pay $3.00 a gallon for gas and the only other time that I can remember a gas crisis; was when Reagan was president.



I know some of you might think that this is ramblings of a liberal, but I am registered as an independent. I do have some conservative positions including fiscal. Thank you for allowing me to vent.

 

[Ken Stewart]

Geez, I hate politics! This issue can be slanted every time someone comes on with their opinion. Plain and simple, most of the deficit is a result of 9/11. The ringleader of 9/11 ... we had him in our sights during Clinton's reign, Clinton did not want to be bothered the day we had him and would not act (he was having a party). No disrespect meant JJ, but I'm curious about your numbers on unemployment and true numbers on the economy, doesn't seem to match what I've heard from analysts over the last year (they're more optimistic). Even that's been slanted by different sides, but I believe it was one of the major financial shows I was watching that dissected the numbers (about six months ago) and showed the economy was much better than some maniacal economists claimed.



So, I could continue this by saying dubya has had to pick up the war bill that Clinton would not pay. All the next candidate has to do is appease the liberals and say everything the opposite of dubya and will likely win. As far as Kerry ... I still don't buy the "war hero" tag and will hate the day his name shows on my retirement certificate, he's a shifty son of a .... Whoever promises to pull us out of the sandbox will win.

 

[Tom Schindler]

I'm not going to the National ST meet either, because I don't want to hang out which a bunch of bigots.

I wouldn't call anyone here a bigot. Illegal immigrants are breaking the law a should not be rewarded for breaking the law either. Your Fiance is from Puerto Rico. Good for her. My mom is from germany and she became a citizan the legal way. She did not come to visit and hide out to live here. She had a good job with the German Government and was making good money.



Illegals are breaking the law. They are not paying tax's, yet still get police/fire/EMS protection, education for thier children, and use the parks we do. the only difference is that they don't pay for it. If I worked under the table for half the money I make without paying tax's, I would be further ahead. I hate having to pay someone to file my Tax's. I don't like to get my "leftovers" from the check that I earned. I choose to work legally and I pay into SS, Fed, state, and local tax's, along with medicare and other benefits that, one day, I hope to collect from.



Being angry at someone because they are a different ethnic group is biggotry. Being angry at someone that is breaking the law, but happens to be a different ethnic group is not biggotry. it is the right thing to do. they are breaking the law and should not be rewarded for doing so.



Why don't I go out and rob a bank? Maybe when they catch me, I will just plead to them and say I am trying to provide myself with a better life. Think they will allow me to keep the money? It doesn't matter if I am from Russia, Turkey, Mexico, China, Romania, or anywhere else in the world. I broke the law.





Tom

 

[John Draper]

Ken,

Haven't heard that slant before. I find it interesting as; unlike some I consider myself open minded. In that I can change my opinion/mind at any time and I certainly can be convinced otherwise. You have made some very good points.



My father fought fasicism in WWII, maintaining my right to express my opinion, even if it may be incorrect.



The thing that really pulled me in was the Democrat = socialist = communist thing, that seems to be the view of the right towards anyone even slightly positioned to the left. If I said Republican = socialist = fascist, I am sure that would have gotten a lot of attention from some here.



I think that the deficit (no matter who's fault it is), interest only morgages and the especially gas prices (can't see how anyone could possibly blame that on Clinton), will eventually bring the economy down even further. Six months ago I don't think we had the gas prices we have now. I also noticed that other things; such as the large increase in my electric bill (due to gas prices), in the form of a fuel charge. You may say that the economy is great, but all I notice is that I do not have the spending power I had even six months ago, and that is where I get my numbers from. While the state of the economy may be great for some; currently, it ain't so great for me and I am sure that there are many in the same way.



As far as Kerry is concerned, I voted for Bush. But Kerry was still a war hero with the metals to prove it, and I really didn't care for the way he was treated by some during the election. It was BS, even if he wasn't the right man for the job. But it was McCain and what the religious right did to him that bothered me. I really would have wanted to vote for McCain the first time around.



Maybe Hillery will pull us out; just kidding, cause I know how some of you would feel about that.:lol:

 

[walter clark]

Nelson I hope you dont leave this board as I truely appreciate your insightfull opinions on various matters. I dont always agree with your postition but have come to reconize the positive effects of time that through experiences in life imparts wisdom to the human intelict. I am probaly much younger than you and as such I often dont express my self as thoughtfully and with even a bit of rashness at times. I does seem to me though that the majority of people that do vocalize there political vews here tend to be of the extreme right mind set. These persons are automaticly assuming that many others here are as well and so want to hold right wing virtual pep rallys here. I voice myself when these people spew this political/ethnic poison because of a famos quote my mom tought me when I was a teen and became interested in and discussed with her why people of diffrent social-ethnic and faiths have such diffrent views. We have a duty to speak out.



When the Nazis came for the communists,

I remained silent;

I was not a communist.



When they locked up the social democrats,

I remained silent;

I was not a social democrat.



When they came for the trade unionists,

I did not speak out;

I was not a trade unionist.



When they came for the Jews,

I did not speak out;

I was not a Jew.



When they came for me,

there was no one left to speak out.



Martin Niemöller

 

[Gavin Allan]

Discrimination based on sex, race, religion, color, ethnicity, country of origin, etc. sucks, and is wrong always.



I think the issues being discussed here have more to do with BEHAVIOR.

 

[John Draper]

Walter,



Nicely said, especially like that bit of wisdom from your mom.



Ken,

Now that I am not half asleep, I'll try to answer you question about numbers and no offense taken.



If you watch or listen to or read any media with a political slant you will get one set of numbers, watch, listen or read another ya get a completely different set of numbers. So where do you get true numbers? Certainly not from the FOX channel or CBS. Anyway, I don't need no stinkin numbers (hope no one takes offense to that).



From what I remember just before 2000 is employers begging for help. The stock market has not yet reached that peak, although it has recently come close. And I think we are in for a fall, or as some would call it a "correction". Anyway I get my true numbers from what I experience and what I see around me, not from someone else's take on it.



Also, there are other ways of spending other that borrowing and leaving it up to the next generation to pay it off. I would guess that some on the extreme right should be happy, Bush followed Reagan to a T on that point. Just curious on how Jimmy Carter could be blamed for the Reagan deficit.



Although I still believe that Clinton was the best president we had in decades, but I have to agree with you that he dropped the ball on dealing with terrorism. But I didn't vote for him for his psychic ability, no one knew that was going to come except the ringleaders of 9/11 and Clinton was not in the white house then.



Sometimes it really seems that no one bugs both liberals and conservatives alike, more than a centrist like me. :lol:

 

[Ken Stewart]

jj, I didn't say economy was "great" just not as dismal as it's being portrayed by the politicians and supporters of those politicians. Clinton dropped the ball on terrorism because he refused to listen to people who were trying to get him to authorize to take Bin Laden out ... nothing to do with psychic ability. When his aide rec'd a call from the military "advisor" saying we have him, he got irritated and said don't bother me I'm at a party, this happened at least three times during the party. We had a two-hour window, that window closed and BL continued on. We knew about him, we had him, wild Bill didn't want to deal with him. Nothing to do with politics, just the fact he didn't respond most definitely contributed to 9/11 happening. 9/11 would still possibly happen because that's such a radical, belief-based society over there and they truly do not want to modernize to non-Islamic values, but I believe it would have been delayed and we may not be dealing with these issues until another president was in power.



Am I extreme right? No. Am I happy with the current state? Absolutely not. I prefer to sift through the fluff of hollywood actors claiming their "knowledge" and people blindly following, I prefer to sift through the very liberal media, I prefer my own experiences of being over there and seeing things firsthand, I prefer my time spent in Europe and talking to how other countries view the USA. Most americans only know what's going on here, the rest of the world knows all about us I guarantee you that. Their papers have large sections on the US every single day. Whenever a story breaks here about something outside the US, it's reacted to by very limited knowledge of most of the population. Easy to manipulate.



Past president did some good things outside of doing other ladies However, he did leave one really dirty box for his successor

 

[John Draper]

Ken,



"Wild Bill" - I love it-really. :lol: That's much better than Slick Willy!



Just curious as to how you are up on what occurred during the party, cause I don't remember hearing anything about that. Not saying you are not correct and don't mean any disrespect. Just wondered how I missed that, and hope I am not getting a selective memory. :lol:



I don't think that BL was considered as much of a threat as he turned out to be. And to me, those were the times; and how terrorist were dealt with during those times- lightly. An example; UK didn't invade Ireland to get to the IRA. Even though the IRA did some pretty nasty things. However, I do feel that it had become necessary to invade afgan. May sound dumb, but I sometimes wonder if it wouldn't have been better to leave after we got rid of the regimes we didn't like. And if we didn't like the one that followed, simply go back in. I think that would have saved many of the lives of our troops and our money.



That same dirty box logic could be applied to Reagan and the "dirty box deficit" he left for his successors; in my opinion.



Don't consider myself a man of the world, but as I understand it, many countries (and especially the people of those countries) right now, do not view US well. I do think that they liked us better when Clinton was president though.



We recently invaded two sovereign countries, no wonder they watch us closely.

 

[Ken Stewart]

Glad you liked Wild Bill My job is part of the community that people are bashing for "missing" so much. We did not and do not "miss" as much as they'd like you to believe, just certain people in power do not want to listen because it will damage them politically here and abroad. One very accurate book to read, "Dereliction of Duty", accounts some of what I talked about, not all. Not witten by any famous author, just by someone who worked directly for Wild Bill. You're absolutely correct that BL wasn't "considered" the threat he really was because WB did not respect the military nor the advisors telling him that BL is the threat.



No disagreement with you about the Reagan dirty box logic, this will never end and will continue. But the issue at hand was the present economy and why it is in the state it is. As far as how other countries view us, again I will tell you that it's not just because Bush is in power. It's just more escalated now because of the very noticeable dissent within our own country and the other countries feed off of that. They liked us better when Clinton was in because he played politics by telling what they wanted to hear and not taking aggressive action, I'm convinced that lack of action has most definitely contributed to where we're at now.

 

[John Draper]

Ken,



Sounds like a good read, have to consider getting a hold of that book. Just might change my opinion, one thing nice about being a centrist, you can change your mind without changing your philosophy.



Agreed that while there is some dissent here, it is no where near what it was during Viet nam.

And I hope that it doesn't end up the same as it did back then. Gotta go, thanks Ken for a very interesting and thought provoking discussion.