New PC rant

[Rodger Tellefson]

Baron, Rich Stern hit the nail right on the head. That is exactly why I bought our Dell noteboo & Dell AXIM X50v handheld. Working with PC's 20 yrs ago was pretty ezsy, and that is where I learned that having too much RAM is better than having to little. I started using AutoCAD ver. 2.6 back in the mid 80's when doing a regen of a drawing meant going to coffee. I just got burned out on doing all the support myself. At least Dell insn't as bad (proprietary) as Tandy was.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Wow, Q, you have the biggest IT penis of us all. Way to whip it out! :lol:



I do agree that you need ample memory to run XP smoothly, but "at least 512MB" just hasn't been my experience, your's shows different and I respect that. But the "Performance" tab on Task Manager tells the real story. I have seen MOST computers I have worked on hover around 400MB of Mem Usage, and that's with a few browser windows and office apps running.



I even said that given the very lost cost, there isn't much reason NOT to have 1GB on a system these days, and use that upper 512MB a minority of the time. But, you are right, its nice to have it there when you need it...it's just most people don't need it.



The last system I built I put 1GB in...it screams.

 

[Wayne Foy]

hehe, my laptop has 1 gig DDR on it, my Desktop is running on almost 2 gigs DDR (being as i built it for a gamer, gotta love UT)

 

[Richard L]

I have to agree with Rich Stern. I have over 35 years of IT experience going back to computers and languages most of you have never heard of. I too find that at my age, trying to stay on the bleeding edge of IT is much too difficult for my old brain (8088)



At my last job I configured 85 new Dell PC that were purchased to support the company's new software. I found Dell PC's to be readily adaptable to over the counter parts and their PC's did not come with a bunch of pre-installed garbage.



I think Gateway, and IBM's old PS2 PC's were some of the most proprietary systems made. When IBM marketed the the PS2 is when they lost the PC market because people did not want proprietary PC's they wanted PC's to be a generic commodity. Apple did the same thing but what saved them was they had already established a foot hold in schools and the desktop publishing industry.



Home consumer PC's like HP, Compaq etc are loaded with all the limited edition software crap to get the novice user to spend more money for the junky toys.



...Rich

 

[Dre L]

Uh oh, now RichL has the big IT weenie.



I can't compete. I only have 8 years.



I've got this one box running a version of 64bit XP, it has 20 Itanium CPU's, 10 terabytes of disk, and get this 80GB of RAM, and it's still slow. Go figure.

 

[Richard L]

Sorry nobleman,

I think my age and experience only shows I'm weenied out! :huh:



...Rich

 

[Dre L]

And therein lies the problem with IT... what you know is only good for about as long as the next upgrade. This field sucks.



25 years ago it was about moving forward, now, screw it. Be glad you're not seeing what this field has become.



You have ineffective leadership in the department, a bunch of techs that know squat about tech stuff much less business, vendors that know jack about what they sell, are expected to train yourself in everything, work 60 hours a week and get screwed out of a decent salary or chance of advancement.



You want a rant, here's a rant, screw IT all the way with a spiked bat. :angry:

 

[Michelle Widell]

Hmm.. well.. I've been PC'n since the Timex Sinclair.



In regards to the following:

I really don't know why ANYONE buys from Dell, Gateway, etc., when you can build your own for CONSIDERABLY cheaper.

Sure, if you pirate Windows XP.



Don't get me wrong - I've built my own PC's for years. First was a 386SX-16. I bought two Presarios new off the show-room floor too. One was a Pentium (first edition), and the last a Pentium 3. The P3 is still cooking along in a retail shop I gave it to, and my nephew used the Pentium until he bought a new computer last year.



For business, I find it much better to recommend brand-name computers. I used to work for an HP reseller (not HP's like the department store quality crap, but business-class machines). Now I am on my own, and push Dells (preferably the Optiplex line.) I don't want to deal with warrantying some PC I built.



I had a client ask me today how much Windows XP Pro was, as he wanted to build some new PC's for his office. He was quite surprised to hear it was about $275 for the full version.



I quoted out the following today (quantity pricing)

Dell Optiplex GX520 Minitower, Pentium 4 2.8GHz

1GB RAM

Floppy drive

Windows XP Pro

17" Dell 1704FPT LCD monitor (analog/digital)

Optical mouse

Dell USB enhanced multimedia keyboard

Integrated speaker

Microsoft Office 2003 Basic (Outlook, Word, Excel)

3 year warranty (next business day)



w/160gb SATA drive, 16x DVD+/-RW $1214 ea



I challenge someone to build a PC with those specs for less. I'm sure you can come close, maybe even less, but certainly not CONSIDERABLY CHEAPER.



Ohh... and the Optiplex doesn't come with a bunch of crap software.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Yeah, I was going to say the same thing...it is hard to beat Dell's prices for a custom built when you add in the OEM price of Windows XP. I always buy an OEM copy when putting together a new PC.

 

[Rich Stern]

And again, you need at least 512MB to run XP smoothly.

Apparently not. There are a lot of folks who make do with less because they don't think a PC has to do a whole bunch of stuff all at once using a lot of bloated software. End users don't always want what you want. Strangely, they want what they want. Understanding their needs is what drives the choices.

Once you start running programs, like AV and anti-spyware, you need more, and besides, it's cheap!

That's not really the point. We are discussing how things are (entry level machines configured with choking amounts of unneeded, in-your-face-so-I-can-sell-you-updates-and-subscriptions software). I unloaded at least six applications from that machine's memory that had nothing to do with safe/secure computing. My point was that the OEM had little justification for creating a lousy initial user experience for that marketing opportunity. If it was a one time, "watch our commercial during startup," that would be ok. But we're talking about delivering a product that is extremely unfriendly simply because of a desire to market partner products to someone who's already bought a product.

Saying that she only browses the Internet a few times is still dangerous. SHe'll get emails and get popups and the next thig you know, she's been compromised. Her identity will then be in danger.

I didn't say I was leaving the PC unprotected. I just said I got rid of a lot of useless crap.

But if you want to continue to thrash that disk and run slower, more power to you.

If it turns out that she needs more RAM to run her desired softare, I will certainly add it. Again, this isn't about money. It's about unneeded bloat and poor treatement of the customer.

Edit: Task Manager shortcut keys are CTRL-SHIFT-ESC

CTRL-ALT-DEL comes naturally from muscle memory.

 

[Tom Schindler]

< start rant >The original PC was called a Tomputer, but they changed the name to Computer to make it sound better.



I started it all. I got 400 years in the buisness.< /end rant >



Years don't matter. I have been in my field of Non-Destructive Testing for 10 years. I have guys that have been in the industry for 30+ years that ask me for advice. Experience is most everything, but not everything. Get someone that worked on one inspection method for 30 years and they know just about everything there is to know about that method. Get a new guy in there and you might learn something you never knew.



PC's are no different.



Years don't matter. When we think because we have been in the industry for X amount of year so I know it all is the first step to failure. Trust me, I have seen it in my field more then too many times. A guy with 30+ years of experience gets a big head on his shoulders and thinks he knows it all. A guy with 10 years shows him something he never knew. The guy with 10 years gets arogant about something. A new guy shows him something he doesn't know. Everyone learns...if they can see past the X years of experiance and arogance.





Tom

 

[Mike Wilson]

In a way, just like our pre-installed "hardware" on our tracs...

I'm thinking ball joints, on this analogy.

I wish it were that easy to delete our factories weak suspension components

and reinstall some EE stuff!!!

But, alas, I dream...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

On 2000, you are a button click away from the Task Manager when you hit C-A-D.



Isn't it the same on XP?



Oh, and my Athlon 1800 development server (old school technology, built custom in 2002) is my main work computer. It is setup with Win2K server, SQL Server, Exchange Server, AVG, etc. and it is using about 600MB of memory right now...and I cound 10 apps minimized in the tray, and about as many tray icons....and it is spiffy!



There are a TON of people right now that are trading in there 5 and 6 year old PII, PIII and early P4 computers for used 2yo models. They typically already have the printers, monitors, etc, and can get a good, used CPU for under $200. I helped my neighbor setup a P4 2.5Ghz, 512MB, 160GB HDD, Radeon 256Mb, CDRW, DVD computer they purchased used for $170; and it replaced a P4 1.2Ghz HP that was crapping out.



They asked if they should upgrade to 1GB total memory...I said "when you need it!".



TJR

 

[Mike Wilson]

By the way, since we are on the topic of computers, in case any of you missed

comments in my earlier posts, I have an IBM Aptiva series running Windows

'93 with a Windows '95 update, not even the Windows '95 full version!

I hear many of you saying "Edsel", (since this is a Ford-type Site)!

I couldn't agree more.

Don't know where I'm going with this, but bear with me (and my Edsel)

if I do a double-post or some other odd thing from time to time!

I've learned one thing with this system, though, I can honestly say to someone,

"Oh, it's not me, it's the computer system, again!". :wacko:

 

[Dre L]

Michelle, Challenge Accepted. (I didn't bother with the quantity discounts, and some of the lesser cost parts were out of stock, and this is from one site without shopping around.



80661-1 Quantity Limit: 20

Intel® Pentium® 4 Processor Prescott 3EGHz, 800MHz FSB, Socket 478, 1MB Cache Retail *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $181.49 $181.49







80097-16 Quantity Limit: 20

Corsair TWINX1024-3200C2 1GB DDR400 XMS3200 Dual-Channel Memory w/Heat Spreader Retail *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $118.00 $118.00







111001 Quantity Limit: 20

Sony FD MPF9201121-1/MPF920-Z (Z/121) 6082 1.44MB 3.5in Floppy Disk Drive (Black) *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $13.50 $13.50







100592-1 Quantity Limit: 20

IBM Hitachi Deskstar 7K250 160GB Serial ATA 7200RPM Hard Drive w/8MB Buffer *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $80.50 $80.50







240309 Quantity Limit: 20

Asus P4P800-VM i865G P4 800FSB Skt478 DDR M-ATX Motherboard w/Audio, Video, LAN, Serial ATA (Prescott Ready) *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $94.99 $94.99







174227 Quantity Limit: 20

LG GSA-4163B 16X Super-Multi Internal DVD Rewriter (Beige) ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $54.99 $54.99







604670 Quantity Limit: 20

Microsoft Office Basic Edition 2003 (Full Version) Single-Pack OEM *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $163.99 $163.99







604614 Quantity Limit: 50

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition (Full Version) Single-Pack OEM ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $89.99 $89.99







239023 Quantity Limit: 20

Acer AL1715S-8 17in LCD Monitor w/Speakers (Silver) Retail ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $234.99 $234.99







211100 Quantity Limit: 20

Logitech Internet Pro Keyboard & Optical Mouse Combo (Black) ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $19.99 $19.99







140036 Quantity Limit: 20

Antec Solution Series SLK1650B Mini Tower Case (Black) Retail

Remove $63.00 $63.00







Subtotal: $1115.43





I figure if I really try, I can come in around $2-300 less than the above price. But for a client with multiple PC's why bother. Like you said, why need to worry about having to warranty your pc.



Of course, if you buy 2 extra PC worth of hardware, you just swap out the defective part and replace at leisure. Warrantying isn't that hard, you charge him almost what dell does, and pocket the difference, plus charge labor on future repairs.

 

[Dre L]

It's about unneeded bloat and poor treatement of the customer

See, I told you this friggin industry sucks. I deal with that crap all day and night.

 

[Mike Wilson]

Another question...



I just installed Mozilla Firefox on my W'95 Tuesday, and it seems to be running

a little faster and cleaner. Anyone here had experience with this download

(on advice of bellsouth.net/techsupport/drivers), or something like that?!?

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Sure, Nobleman, that is a high end computer. You will always beat Dell, Gateway and HP on a high-end PC.



But try to do the same thing with a PC of the following specs:



- P4 2.8Ghz

- 80GbHDD

- 512MB RAM

- DVDRW

- 17" LCD

- Basic Mouse, Keyboard, Speaker

- WinXP Home



It's hard to beat Dell's prices, especially when they run a deal, on a config like the one above...Dell is currently selling that for $679.



I'm not saying you can't beat that price, you probably can...but I doubt you will beat it by a CONSIDERABLE amount. I would be interested in seeing the total price.



TJR

 

[Dre L]

Again, not really trying. I do need to add $50 to Michelle's challenge though, I quoted XP Home for her, not pro.



You are correct though, the higher performing the Dell, the cheaper it is to BYOB.



With them it's "Here's a bigger crappy part", but they are going for something more important than quality or what have you, they're going for market share, because market share is what people see. If 51% of the fortune 500 bought crappy hardware, so would another 39%. "Oh, it must be good, Microsoft uses it."



Personally, I'll take an HP over a Dell, and an IBM over an HP. If compaq were still around it might be a different story.



Product Description Quantity UnitPrice ExtPrice



168097 Quantity Limit: 20

Raidmax Mini Scorpio 168 ATX-168WUP Mini Tower Case (Blue) w/Side Window Retail

Remove $44.99 $44.99







80549-1 Quantity Limit: 20

Intel® Celeron® D 335 Processor 2.8GHZ, 533FSB, 256KB Cache Retail ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $79.90 $79.90







246551 Quantity Limit: 20

EPOX EP-P4MKI-P Via P4M266A P4 533FSB Skt478 DDR ATX Motherboard w/Audio, Video, LAN Retail (Prescott Ready) ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $43.00 $43.00







174227 Quantity Limit: 20

LG GSA-4163B 16X Super-Multi Internal DVD Rewriter (Beige) ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $54.99 $54.99







101318 Quantity Limit: 20

Western Digital Caviar WD800BB 80GB Ultra ATA/100 7200RPM Hard Drive *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $54.30 $54.30







83710 Quantity Limit: 20

Patriot Signature PSD512400 512MB DDR400 PC3200 Memory Retail ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $44.99 $44.99







110403 Quantity Limit: 20

Mitsumi MTM43W 1.44MB 3.5in Floppy Disk Drive *** Free 2nd Day ***

Remove $13.00 $13.00







235056 Quantity Limit: 20

Jetway LCD-M1752SS 17in Multimedia LCD Monitor (Silver) Retail ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $219.99 $219.99







211126 Quantity Limit: 20

Logitech Deluxe Desktop Optical Keyboard & Mouse Combo (Sea Gray) ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $17.99 $17.99







604614 Quantity Limit: 50

Microsoft Windows XP Home Edition (Full Version) Single-Pack OEM ***Free 2nd Day***

Remove $89.99 $89.99







Subtotal: $663.14



Of course you still need to build a working image for it.

 

[Michelle Widell]

Hey Nobleman...



Plus, you didn't add your time for building the thing. Let's say $85/hr - 2 to 3 hours to build it.



As I said, you can't build a PC "considerably cheaper" than buying a decent machine from Dell or HP. (And I'm not comparing it to buying the Dimension or Presario line either.)



I worked for an HP reseller... And I've worked with dozen's of customers who bought Dell. They're both good machines (if you buy the higher-end machines, like the Deskpro or Optiplex.) Their cheap pc's are just that - cheap. They may give you years upon years of good service, but not as reliably as the business-class machines.



In any case, I'd recommend either. We didn't sell IBM, so I don't have any experience with them.