TomT
Well-Known Member
Yeah, I also had a couple of RV tires rot but that's because they were cheap tires to begin with. I don't think nitrogen would have saved them.
Nitrogen filled tires
- Thread starter Frank Marano
- Start date
Help Support Ford SportTrac Forum:
Both sets of our were Michilin.
Tom
Tom
Our local paper had an article about Nitrogen inflated tires.
Tom
Tom
MTURocks,
You make a valid point, but the real problem is that most vehicles on the road are running on under-inflated tires !! Since occasionally checking tire pressures is much too inconvenient for the average driver, Nitrogen reduces the requirements for the frequent tire pressure checks.
This has been a problem since the "Full Service" gas stations have all but disappeared. Unless you have your own air compressor it is difficult to get access to compressed air. Many gas stations do not have air compressors anymore, but you can buy a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk. :wacko:
Since tire pressures are supposed to be checked when the tires are cold, you cannot drive more than a block or two to get air before the tires start to heat up.
I would guess that at least half the people on the road today have never even checked their oil or even looked under the hood of their vehicles. It's the same reason why we have extended mileage synthetic oils, or sealed transmission, etc. People are just to busy to do all these checks and probably have no interest in learning how to check their oil or tire pressures.
I know my wife would never do that, even if she could.
As for nitrogen reducing the oxidation of the rubber inside the tire, it does happen. I have had tires dryrot just because of age. RV's, boat trailers, and other seasonal vehicles that sit for 6 months of the year are very suseptible to deteriorating rubber.
...Rich
You make a valid point, but the real problem is that most vehicles on the road are running on under-inflated tires !! Since occasionally checking tire pressures is much too inconvenient for the average driver, Nitrogen reduces the requirements for the frequent tire pressure checks.
This has been a problem since the "Full Service" gas stations have all but disappeared. Unless you have your own air compressor it is difficult to get access to compressed air. Many gas stations do not have air compressors anymore, but you can buy a loaf of bread or a gallon of milk. :wacko:
Since tire pressures are supposed to be checked when the tires are cold, you cannot drive more than a block or two to get air before the tires start to heat up.
I would guess that at least half the people on the road today have never even checked their oil or even looked under the hood of their vehicles. It's the same reason why we have extended mileage synthetic oils, or sealed transmission, etc. People are just to busy to do all these checks and probably have no interest in learning how to check their oil or tire pressures.
I know my wife would never do that, even if she could.
As for nitrogen reducing the oxidation of the rubber inside the tire, it does happen. I have had tires dryrot just because of age. RV's, boat trailers, and other seasonal vehicles that sit for 6 months of the year are very suseptible to deteriorating rubber.
...Rich
user 62394
Active Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Messages
- 491
- Reaction score
- 0
RichardL,
I hear what your saying about people not doing anything to maintain their cars and I agree with you about that. The problem that I see is I don't really think that the instance of low pressure would go down much if everyone had nitrogen in their tires. You'd still have the majority of people running on inproper pressure, because it is not just temperature or gas leaking through the pores (which I have trouble buying into) that results in pressure changes.
And, yes, rubber does oxidize, but every instance mentioned here has been on a motorhome or something else that likely doesn't get used much. Lord knows that I have seen many an old tractor tire that is rotted out. So these are tires that have been around many years longer than tires on any typical car. When you are talking that kind of age, I still don't believe that the nitrogen would have changed a thing.
Still a waste, in my opinion.
Rocks
I hear what your saying about people not doing anything to maintain their cars and I agree with you about that. The problem that I see is I don't really think that the instance of low pressure would go down much if everyone had nitrogen in their tires. You'd still have the majority of people running on inproper pressure, because it is not just temperature or gas leaking through the pores (which I have trouble buying into) that results in pressure changes.
And, yes, rubber does oxidize, but every instance mentioned here has been on a motorhome or something else that likely doesn't get used much. Lord knows that I have seen many an old tractor tire that is rotted out. So these are tires that have been around many years longer than tires on any typical car. When you are talking that kind of age, I still don't believe that the nitrogen would have changed a thing.
Still a waste, in my opinion.
Rocks
Chris Taylor
Well-Known Member
I have an Idea. Why not combine the nitrogen filled tires with a tornado in the fuels line. Maybe get 30 MPG that way? 
:wacko::blink:
:wacko::blink:Deleted deleted
Well-Known Member
I think the claims of 1 to 1.5 more mpg from nitrogen alone is a bit far-fetched. I bet the driver unconsciously 'changed' his driving habits after using the nitrogen.
Heck, I can vary my mpg from 31mpg to 38mpg just from driving conservatively in my Toyota.
Heck, I can vary my mpg from 31mpg to 38mpg just from driving conservatively in my Toyota.
Darin,
I think the 1-1.5 MPG improvement with nitrogen is based on an average of the amount of time or miles the typical person drives before properly inflating their tires. I know that I had a slow leak in one of the tires on my wife's Saturn Ion and after getting the tire fixed gas mileage improved from less than 27 MPG to over 31 MPG... and that was just one tire under-inflated.
Rock,
I suggest you do a search on Nitrogen filled tires on the Internet. You will see that the tire pressure loss with air IS caused by the air permeating through the thin side walls of the tire. It has nothing to do with temperature fluctuations. All gases expand and contract at the same rate with the same temperature variations. Simply put, nitrogen does not leak through the sidewalls of the tires as readily as regular compressed air. I thought it was hard to believe too, but research indicates that it is true.
I personally don't use nitrogen in my tires because I have an air compressor and check my tire pressures regularly. But for those people who have more money than time, it sounds like a good alternative to maintaining tire pressures, gas mileage, and reduce tire wear.
...Rich
I think the 1-1.5 MPG improvement with nitrogen is based on an average of the amount of time or miles the typical person drives before properly inflating their tires. I know that I had a slow leak in one of the tires on my wife's Saturn Ion and after getting the tire fixed gas mileage improved from less than 27 MPG to over 31 MPG... and that was just one tire under-inflated.
Rock,
I suggest you do a search on Nitrogen filled tires on the Internet. You will see that the tire pressure loss with air IS caused by the air permeating through the thin side walls of the tire. It has nothing to do with temperature fluctuations. All gases expand and contract at the same rate with the same temperature variations. Simply put, nitrogen does not leak through the sidewalls of the tires as readily as regular compressed air. I thought it was hard to believe too, but research indicates that it is true.
I personally don't use nitrogen in my tires because I have an air compressor and check my tire pressures regularly. But for those people who have more money than time, it sounds like a good alternative to maintaining tire pressures, gas mileage, and reduce tire wear.
...Rich
user 62394
Active Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Messages
- 491
- Reaction score
- 0
RichardL,
I've done plenty of searches on the internet on this subject, because I was curious about it when I first heard about it. The conclusion that I have come to is that it is a waste of money if you are paying extra for it. The amount of pressure you lose by gas permeating through the rubber is nothing compared to other sources of loss. You still need to check your tires regularly.
And, yes, I understand the ideal gas law. I had college and high school chemistry.
Rocks
I've done plenty of searches on the internet on this subject, because I was curious about it when I first heard about it. The conclusion that I have come to is that it is a waste of money if you are paying extra for it. The amount of pressure you lose by gas permeating through the rubber is nothing compared to other sources of loss. You still need to check your tires regularly.
And, yes, I understand the ideal gas law. I had college and high school chemistry.
Rocks
Rocks,
What are the "Other sources for Tire Pressure Losses" that you speak of. If a typical tire will loose 3 psi a month due to air permeating through the side walls, what other mystery steals air out of the tire as consistantly and regularly???
Please don't say leaking tire valves, or pinhole punctures in the tires since even nitrogen will leak out of a tire if it has a hole in it. Temperature changes do not cause a tire to loose air since the air will contract when cold and expand when heated, No air is lost.
If you did research using nitrogen to inflate tires, you would not have made the statement that "You doubted that air would permeate throught the sidewalls of the tire, while nitrogen does not" That is the main advantage of using nitrogen. Airlines have been using nitrogen in air plane tires for years just for this reasons.
You say it is an extra cost item, and that is true, but many service stations have machines that dispense air and they charge you 25 cents for a few puffs of air and you can ususally only adjust the tire pressure in one tire. If you don't have an air compressor, you will probably still be paying for the air, but if you use nitrogen, they probably won't need to have the pressure adjusted except once a year.
...Rich
What are the "Other sources for Tire Pressure Losses" that you speak of. If a typical tire will loose 3 psi a month due to air permeating through the side walls, what other mystery steals air out of the tire as consistantly and regularly???
Please don't say leaking tire valves, or pinhole punctures in the tires since even nitrogen will leak out of a tire if it has a hole in it. Temperature changes do not cause a tire to loose air since the air will contract when cold and expand when heated, No air is lost.
If you did research using nitrogen to inflate tires, you would not have made the statement that "You doubted that air would permeate throught the sidewalls of the tire, while nitrogen does not" That is the main advantage of using nitrogen. Airlines have been using nitrogen in air plane tires for years just for this reasons.
You say it is an extra cost item, and that is true, but many service stations have machines that dispense air and they charge you 25 cents for a few puffs of air and you can ususally only adjust the tire pressure in one tire. If you don't have an air compressor, you will probably still be paying for the air, but if you use nitrogen, they probably won't need to have the pressure adjusted except once a year.
...Rich
In my area it 50 cents to a buck for 3 minutes of run time.
Tom
user 62394
Active Member
- Joined
- May 27, 2005
- Messages
- 491
- Reaction score
- 0
RichardL,
OK, last time I'm posting on this.
You have made exactly my point. Nitrogen will leak out of valves and pinhole leaks or any other leak caused for any reason just like air. I feel these are a much bigger contributer to pressure loss than permeation will ever be. So why pay the extra money for Nitrogen, which is much more than the 25-50 cents people have mentioned for air. (And frankly, I still find it for free).
Temperature will have a different effect for air vs. nitrogen due to the difference in water levels for each gas. The effect is pretty much negligible, however, so hardly worth discussing. Racing does use it for this reason, but it's a bigger deal when you're doing 180mph and tenths of a second count.
My understanding as to why airplanes other items use nitrogen has more to do with convenience than anything. I believe (and I admittedly could be wrong about this) that higher pressures are required in many aircraft tires, etc. and it is easier and cheaper to do this with nitrogen than straight air. Again, this is due to water content.
By the way, below is an excerpt from an article in the St. Petersburg Times citing Michelin officials.
At least one tire manufacturer is even more skeptical about the advantages of nitrogen in the family car.
Michelin officials recommend nitrogen only for tires used "in a high risk environment and/or when the user wants to reduce the consequences of a potential abnormal overheating of the tire-wheel assembly (for example in some aircraft applications)," according to a company statement.
But for all other tires in normal use, nitrogen "is not required and does not necessarily bring the expected benefit.
"It is true that the physical properties of nitrogen reduce the pressure loss due to the natural permeability of the materials of the tire and thus the broad use of nitrogen will in general assist motorists with pressure maintenance.
"Nevertheless, the existence of several other possible sources of leaks (tire/rim interface, valve, valve/rim interface and the wheel) prevents the guarantee of better pressure maintenance for individuals using nitrogen inflation."
That's it. I'm done.
Rocks
OK, last time I'm posting on this.
You have made exactly my point. Nitrogen will leak out of valves and pinhole leaks or any other leak caused for any reason just like air. I feel these are a much bigger contributer to pressure loss than permeation will ever be. So why pay the extra money for Nitrogen, which is much more than the 25-50 cents people have mentioned for air. (And frankly, I still find it for free).
Temperature will have a different effect for air vs. nitrogen due to the difference in water levels for each gas. The effect is pretty much negligible, however, so hardly worth discussing. Racing does use it for this reason, but it's a bigger deal when you're doing 180mph and tenths of a second count.
My understanding as to why airplanes other items use nitrogen has more to do with convenience than anything. I believe (and I admittedly could be wrong about this) that higher pressures are required in many aircraft tires, etc. and it is easier and cheaper to do this with nitrogen than straight air. Again, this is due to water content.
By the way, below is an excerpt from an article in the St. Petersburg Times citing Michelin officials.
At least one tire manufacturer is even more skeptical about the advantages of nitrogen in the family car.
Michelin officials recommend nitrogen only for tires used "in a high risk environment and/or when the user wants to reduce the consequences of a potential abnormal overheating of the tire-wheel assembly (for example in some aircraft applications)," according to a company statement.
But for all other tires in normal use, nitrogen "is not required and does not necessarily bring the expected benefit.
"It is true that the physical properties of nitrogen reduce the pressure loss due to the natural permeability of the materials of the tire and thus the broad use of nitrogen will in general assist motorists with pressure maintenance.
"Nevertheless, the existence of several other possible sources of leaks (tire/rim interface, valve, valve/rim interface and the wheel) prevents the guarantee of better pressure maintenance for individuals using nitrogen inflation."
That's it. I'm done.
Rocks
Casey B
Well-Known Member
IMO, another money maker. Because air pressure does change with the temps, more than likely all four tires on your vehicle will change together. Just like when rolling at higher speeds, the tires expand because of force but when sitting still the pressure might look like it's low, especially on the front. I've never had to use anything but air in my tires and will continue to use air. If I had enough power I would blow them up like a balloon with my own air. :lol:
Rocks,
My point is that if you do not have a leaking tire valve and you don't have any pinhole leaks in your tire, you will still loose an average of 3 psi per month. That's enough air loss to increase gas mileage and increase tire wear. If you do not wish to have to constantly check your tires, nitrogen might be a viable option.
Nobody is saying you have to use nitrogen if you don't want to. I don't use nitrogen because I have an air compressor and do not find it that incovenient to check my tire pressures.
For those of you who think putting nitrogen in your tires is a waste of money, In your situation you may be right, but don't ridicule others who find that maintaining a consistant air pressure is easier with nitrogen.
Maybe in another 5 or 10 years, I will start using nitrogen in my tires, if I get too old to bend down and check them myself.
...Rich
My point is that if you do not have a leaking tire valve and you don't have any pinhole leaks in your tire, you will still loose an average of 3 psi per month. That's enough air loss to increase gas mileage and increase tire wear. If you do not wish to have to constantly check your tires, nitrogen might be a viable option.
Nobody is saying you have to use nitrogen if you don't want to. I don't use nitrogen because I have an air compressor and do not find it that incovenient to check my tire pressures.
For those of you who think putting nitrogen in your tires is a waste of money, In your situation you may be right, but don't ridicule others who find that maintaining a consistant air pressure is easier with nitrogen.
Maybe in another 5 or 10 years, I will start using nitrogen in my tires, if I get too old to bend down and check them myself.
...Rich
I mainly got the setup for Dad's new motorhome. I did not want him dealing with having to check the pressure then having to fill it. Plus, in a vehicle like his, every PSI counts.
Tom
Tom
