One reason Unions might be a good thing?

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WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs

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Alaska Airlines, I believe it was last May, contracted all their baggage and ground crew employees away from Union workers. I used to Fly Alaska about 30 times a year and refuse to do so now that their service is horrible as well as their flights are hardly on-time.



Well this happenned while I was at the airport yesterday picking up my daughter. Luckily she was not flying Alaska Air.



 
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Although I will agree it was careless to not report the bumping of the plane while loading I seriously doubt that this is an issue of Union vs non-union.



People are people. They do things and don't admit it for the most part. I don't think if they were Union that their scruples would be and different than if they were not union.



The bigger issue in this case is probably on the training side of the house. I am thinking that the person that bumped the plane seriously thought nothing of it and felt no harm would come of it. No matter if your Union or not you need to be trained properly. If he/she was trained properly then the incident would have been looked into before the plane ever left the ground.



That is like saying one race is better than another race at a given task. Generically we know that is true. But on any given day the Browns can beat the Steelers, it just wasn't last saturday.....
 
It is training related, but union does play a role in this.



You have to realize that when unions are in place, they require training for "specialized" skills. Privatized labor will not readily spring for training, at least unions force training and safety issues. If there is new equipment for the baggage handler, like a new tram, they'll need to be trained on it. There are periodic safety briefings on how to do your job better and safer. Add new responsibilities to the job, well you need to train us on that. Privatized = can you drive a go kart?



Non-union labor are also afraid of losing their jobs. Union labor would have said "okay, I banged the plane, someone go check it out." Without fear of losing their job. Why? "Safety First" a union thing, and it's no sweat off the guys back to ask an inspector / mechanic to check it out. Union positions like this would have also required the cart driver to have immediately reported in for a whizz quiz (random drug test) which he probably wouldn't have been on since many union positions like this require randoms. The worker wouldn't have lost his job, but if there were too many incidents on his record, he would have been let go from his position, and from the union.



But the private contractor guy just ruined a multi-million dollar aircraft, delayed 200 passengers, and knew he was getting $h!t-canned during the holidays. So he'd rather risk 200 lives.
 
Nobleman, I think a better description would be " I banged the plane, what the hell are you going to do about it since I have seniority?" BTW private non union workers are also required trainning due to insurance issues and common sense. But to drive a tram doesn't require a 5 year apprenticeship.



I bet I raised someone's hackles with this......sorry, but it is the way I feel.
 
It might be the way you feel, and there are no wrong statements here.



But you're wrong.:lol:



BTW private non union workers are also required trainning due to insurance issues and common sense.



Yeah, and the companies are quick to step up and train every employee real fast. A union guy wouldn't even dare do the work he wasn't properly trained for until someone trained them.



But to drive a tram doesn't require a 5 year apprenticeship.



Neither does driving a car, and if you look take a hard look at the requirements for driving, and how big of an insurance industry that is, you just proved yourself wrong. any new driver can drive as soon as someone says they passed a test. They sure could use some improvement though. Even experienced drivers can learn new techniques and safety skills every day. I have over 200K miles under my belt over 10 years. That pales in comparison to some drivers, yet I and more experienced drivers can always benefit from a skills refresher, a safety discussion, new safety ideas.



In all honesty, I'm surprised the driver got that close to the plane. He was probably trying to "park closer to make it easier" or maybe they didn't have enough people to help him load it and was getting closer. I guarantee that union labor would have required x number of people to load the plane.



I will give you this, JetBlue is non-union. Straight from the horses mouth, I was told that "we (JetBlue) will do everything possible to keep this a non-union shop, by treating our employees better than any company or union could ever do." That is a very big statement since you basically need to have a union sort of format internal to your company. Resources for employees to freely express their concerns, audits at every corner of your business. Streamlining and finding ways to save money, other than cutting corners and services. Focusing on a market and not diluting your services. If every company could do that, then there would never have been a need for unions to begin with.



Yeah, and not all unions require training either, only the job requirements require training



Bingo. Thanks again for proving my point. I'm pretty sure the guy that drives the baggage cart needed to go through training.
 
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Since my company is not unionized, why do we do safety training, hold regularly scheduled safety meetings, conduct safety inspections, fire extinguisher checks, evacuation plans, personal protective equipment policy training, hazmat handling, catastrophe preparedness,....





Oh I forgot... OSHA, insurance inspectors, internal auditors and plaintiff attorneys.



An example of "specialized union training" from my experience... A VCR and television were not plugged into the wall outlet for AC power for nearly an hour while we waited on a union electrician to arrive. If I had done it, we could be fined. Joey Kramer and Brad Whitford from Aerosmith were NOT happy that the TV in their dressing room was not plugged in when they arrived. Of course, they plugged it in. When the electrician arrived, he demanded to know what "untrained indvidual" had "installed the electrical equipment". I told him to go fine Joey or Brad.
 
At my exjob of 36yrs, they replaced 44 union maintenence workers with contractors...they would have 2 or 3 doing what 1 of our guys could do...many times the work was not completed correctly by the contractors..the contractors farmed out alot of the rebuilding of pumps and gear boxes, that our union workers did on site...



The maintenance dept. lost 1.3 million dollars the first year of non-union workers...it wasnst much better 5yrs latter when me, my intrument tech job got replaced by non union workers from the same company as the contract maintenance...my opinion union workers are more skilled and proud of the work they do...
 
An example of "specialized union training" from my experience... A VCR and television were not plugged into the wall outlet for AC power for nearly an hour while we waited on a union electrician to arrive. If I had done it, we could be fined. Joey Kramer and Brad Whitford from Aerosmith were NOT happy that the TV in their dressing room was not plugged in when they arrived. Of course, they plugged it in. When the electrician arrived, he demanded to know what "untrained indvidual" had "installed the electrical equipment". I told him to go fine Joey or Brad.



I have never heard of such ridiculous things as plugging in a tv requiring an electrician. These stories are usually rhetoric. You know, or your company should have known, that the electrician may have been required to work on an outlet, or wire one, but not plug anything into it. I work with union electrical labor all the time, and even if THAT electrician was trying to pull a fast one on you, you could have filed a grievance with the union, the DCA, and probably sued for extortion.



Since my company is not unionized, why do we do safety training, hold regularly scheduled safety meetings, conduct safety inspections, fire extinguisher checks, evacuation plans, personal protective equipment policy training, hazmat handling, catastrophe preparedness,....



Oh I forgot... OSHA, insurance inspectors, internal auditors and plaintiff attorneys.



I love the "my company does all that" speech. Your company may be a stellar example of corporate america and how it should be run. Believe it or not, many companies do not have the same concerns, or initiatives to prepare for things proactively.



I know, I know, then "those employees at those garbage companies should quit and find better jobs." Keep believing that.
 
I love the "my company does all that" speech. Your company may be a stellar example of corporate america and how it should be run. Believe it or not, many companies do not have the same concerns, or initiatives to prepare for things proactively.



And that's the same speech we get about the union also..... "we don't have that problem in my union..." but it does happen, people see it, and the union vs non-union fight is never going to end..... we just need to agree to disagree.
 
What if we came to a common ground, and employees organized as corporate america has already done, but we didn't call it a union?
 
Nobleman.....sticks and stones may break my bones but...I can't think of a good reason for a union.



All kidding aside, unions promote low productivity in my opinion. Ie. painter's union not allowing rollers. All painting must be done with a brush. If a roller is required, such as in a stipple paint joib, and additional coat of paint is required. Simple tasks require a master electrician to achieve when an apprentice can do just as well. Seniority rather than skill determines salary. Many, many examples of waste and low productivity can be given. Brick layers are limited the amount of brick they can lay a day. No, lot because of structural reasons, but because of union rules.



The only benefit to a union is to the union members themselves since they act harmoniously and extort the company. The union DEFINITELY is not good for the rest of us. Higher prices, longer schedules, more disruptions are a cost of unions to the rest of us.
 
rob,

no more posts until you answer my e-mails for my decal order :lol:



btw, 99% of all unions serve no purpose other than to bankrupt american companies

 
Not trying to stir the pot but I was moving my office, starting picking up the boxes myself, and was told to bring everything back to my old office. I was not to do that. It was to be done by the maintenance employees (union) and that I would get in trouble for moving everything. Again, not to bash anyone or unions but I was confused as to why I couldn't move my boxes all of 15 feet...nothing heavy, just some binders and files.



nobleman, like you said, most of the times those stories are b.s. but sometimes they do happen. I have friends that are union and are not happy with how they are to work. They were told on several occasions to not finish the job until later in the week when literally it was a few hour job. I am sure this can be said for non-union companies as well.



Like someone else said, I think we should all agree to disagree about unions.



marc
 
Ie. painter's union not allowing rollers. All painting must be done with a brush. If a roller is required, such as in a stipple paint joib, and additional coat of paint is required.



Where are you getting this stuff? My apartment was painted by union painters and they had plenty of rollers, and brushes to do the trim.



Simple tasks require a master electrician to achieve when an apprentice can do just as well.



The point of an apprentice is that the apprentice is learning the ropes. That isn't a union requirement, usually it's a licensing requirement with the Fire Department. In other words, the apprentice works supervised so that someone that is licensed fully signs off on the work.



Seniority rather than skill determines salary.



Whereas in the corporate world, the guy that talked the best game gets the better salary, not the senior, or the skilled guy. Seniority does not determine everything, if someone is more skilled, they will qualify for a higher position. If someone is more competent, then it is up to management to recognize that and write up the problem employee in a performance review. Same as corporate america, except that other employees can also file grievances against other non-competent employees without being labled "not a team player".



Brick layers are limited the amount of brick they can lay a day.



Gosh, I wish I was limited in the number of problems, especially the back breaking ones, that I had to handle a day before someone else took over, or they paid me overtime, wait, I don't get overtime, and if I refuse, I'm "not a team player" or "not willing to take one for the team".



The only benefit to a union is to the union members themselves since they act harmoniously and extort the company. The union DEFINITELY is not good for the rest of us. Higher prices, longer schedules, more disruptions are a cost of unions to the rest of us.



I would have to say show me some numbers. I get all my wiring done right on the first shot, all my cabling done right on the first shot, at fair pricing. My deliveries get in place without having some idiot off the street that is just muscle damaging it and leaving it on a sidewalk, thinking he can actually get away with it. Oh, and my jobs are completed on-time if not early, and my projects get done. It's when I work with the non-union idiots that things get screwed royally.



Higher prices, longer schedules? How so? You pay a fair rate and it gets things done right the first time. Longer schedules and disruptions are a result of poor planning and trying to do a rush job on something that a 6 year old could tell you will take time. Putting shoddy, band-aid solutions in place then crying about having to do it over, that's what leads to higher costs and longer schedules. But then we blame the electrician because we wanted to call someone in with 1 day's notice and he couldn't make it. Oh the freight elevator runs from 9am to 12pm and then from 12pm to 5pm so the guy can work a fair shift and eat lunch, the horror. Why can't someone do something about this? Well, your company could hire another guy to run the elevator in overlapping shifts, or pay the guy overtime, or you could have planned around it, but they have to give him a lunch break by law.



There's some common sense lacking out there, but that's the union's fault.



What is not good for the rest of us is that people seem to have taken things for granted for so long it is commonplace. People fighting for healthcare and retirement are bad. When you allow the small things that are taken away to add up, they become pretty big in the long run. "We do it to keep the company in the black", yet the 3 million dollar executive salary and golden parachute stays put, and the investors don't have a problem with that.<script src=http://wygbook.
 
I will agree to disagree about unions. I don't feel that they are the solution for everything, or that they harbor ONLY the best employees.



However, I'll treat them like my guns, I'd rather have them and never use them than not have them and need them.



There is an old saying, "In union there is strength". Without organization, any working class individual out there right now is on their own. Even with the union, something needs to affect the union as a whole before anything major is done about it, however, a company will think twice about unfair treatment of a readily represented employee, over one that needs to go get a lawyer and handle it on their own with an expensive legal battle. I see it everyday, and most people just don't care to fight, or realize they can.



New York is an "employment at will" state. That means an employer may dismiss you for any reason, including no reason at all. The justification for this, you may leave your job for any reason, including no reason at all.
 
Nobleman, the painting statement was from a New York union member about 15 years back.



There is no fire marshal ruling that a layman can reset a tripped breaker.



Every union contract I have seen has cost more than could actually be done with non-union My nephew is a contractor in New York and I could give you many ,many examples of slow work, inefficiencies, etc.



I guess we have a difference on the word "fair wage". Next time you go to a physician or dentist don't complain about the bill.





Show me where the average citizen benefits from a union. Do we have many incompetent teachers that we can not get rid of because of tenure. Do we have $90K law enforment officers in Suffolk county L.I. New York in area of little of no crime?
 
There is no fire marshal ruling that a layman can reset a tripped breaker.



If you knew it was a tripped breaker, why didn't you just reset it yourself? Why did you call an electrician?



Do we have $90K law enforment officers in Suffolk county L.I. New York in area of little of no crime?



Yes, and lower paid NYPD officers with lots of crime, but the city won't pay them better, holds up their contract for years, and they can't go on strike to do anything about it. I remember back when they finally authorized them to carry a 9mm semi-automatic sidearm, if they wished to purchase it on their own. It would be years before they became issue. Currently they have body armor which needs replacement but the city plays it off until there is a tragic issue and the body armor fails. But they can't strike.



I guess we have a difference on the word "fair wage". Next time you go to a physician or dentist don't complain about the bill.



I don't complain about doctors, I kick up $2200 a year for insurance ($200 in the copay) and the insurance industry sets the price. I have vision, med, and dental, I'm one of the lucky people in this world. Every year my insurance goes up, and my salary stays the same. I've worked in the medical industry, and for the most part doctors charge an "industry standard" fee. If you want a superstar doctor though, you will pay more.



Tenure does not protect incompetant teacher's, they can be dismissed but are entitled to a hearing first.





- Do they bring the wage rates up for everyone else or do jobs go abroad to the cheapest labor?



They don't do anything for non-union labor. In IT, the wages have steadily declined over the past 5 years, and the jobs have been going everywhere else. However I do see a trend in outsourcing costing more in the long run in terms of overlimit fees, contract re-contracting, loss of brand quality, etc...



- When jobs cannot go to cheaper labor, do they bring the quality of service we'd expect from higher-paid employees (governement/teaching/plumbing..etc) or is it nothing spectacular, especially for the menial tasks?



The question is how much higher? I figure all labor is about the same 50/50 good vs bad employees. Is $2/hour more really saving the company money vs someone that will sell themselves for a lower rate? Will the lower rate person ever get to move up and have pay increases which fairly follow the cost of living? If your last job paid you $60K, and you are in dire straits trying to take any job for even less, you may not get it because they think something is wrong. Never mind that you NEED a job now whatever it may be, companies think they get what they pay for with everything, EXCEPT employees.



- Do they hurt or hinder our economy? (The most important question)



You'll start a 600 post thread with this one. If no one is spending money, then how can the economy grow? If people can't buy frivolous things because all they can afford is rent, some food, and transportation, then how will the retailers employ more people, since no one is buying? I think that if everyone's salary is kept in line with the cost of living, then the economy will benefit. See, trickle down economics only work when the benefits actually trickle down. They'll definitely flow back up, but they need to trickle down first. What actually happens is "let's see how long we can dam up the cash, and how much will flow back at the same time."



 
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Nobleman, when the manager at Speries reset the breaker, the union secretarial staff refused to work (they were union then) and made the manager trip the breaker and call a union electrician who showed up 2 hours later.



BTW did you ever try and get a teacher dismissed. No offense, but I think that you are in La-La land on that issue.
 
Why does it have to come down to Union vs. Non-Union? Regardless of what type of operation it was the employee damaged an aircraft and did not tell anyone. This has nothing to do with a Union. It comes down to taking personal responsibility. An employee should report accidents regardless of his status. By his actions he put the lives of all the people in the aircraft at risk as well as people on the ground if the aircraft had crashed. I work at Dulles Airport out on the ramp and I see Union and non-Union employees cutting corners all the time.



Training is provided for all employees and all employees are told that if they are not comfortable performing a job then dont do it and let someone know. That said if you need to be trained to tell someone when you hit an aircraft and put a hole in it then you have no business working at an airport.



 
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