OT: And Now The Rest of the Story...

[Thomas Rogers]

Lot's of people have heard the story of the old lady getting a nice pay-day in court when she scalded herself with McDonald's coffee and sued Mickey-D's. Likewise, many have used the case as an example of our overly litiguous society and to describe an erosion of personal responsibility in this country.



Well, here is the "rest of the story"...

 

[Fred]

The McDonald's case is a good example of how the press and other interest groups can sometimes misreport an incident to serve their own purposes.

Say it isn't so.

 

[Jeff C]

Still her fault. I like my coffee scalding hot because I like to add milk. If I add milk to "warm" coffee, it becomes cool, which I don't like. Why wasn't her grandson at fault, he was the one who stopped the car, isn't there a reason why cars in the US have 50+ cup holders in them, so you don't have to use your knees?



Doesn't matter to me, I don't allow food/drinks in my ST.

 

[Travis Munday]

Coulda been an a Japanese car from say 1995ish or earlier, or a German/British car of any age. Those crazy Europeans don't install cup holders as it leads to distraction from this so called "driving" business.

 

[Chris Cannon]

Still doesn't warrant $2.7 million in damages.

 

[TomT]

I hate frivolous lawsuits but at the same time I love seeing people stick it to big corporations.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

"warm coffee", "frivolous lawsuits"...do you gus even read the stuff I post?



The coffee was reportedly something like 50 deg higher than all other, average fast food places serve. McDonald's has since dropped the average temp something like 30 degs, and I have been to McDonald's recently and I have to add enough cream to make the coffee look like "off-white", and it still has to be "sipped" for the first 15 minutes.



Their coffee was unreasonably hot before.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Yes, Sport Traxi, I do think that 2.7M was excessive.



I think the victory in the case is that McDonald's has dropped the temp to something reasonable.



Reading between the lines of the story one can conclude that the award had to be high for McDonald's to inact change.



TJR

 

[Bart Adkins]

When I was a kid, our family was invoved in a car accident. My mom got burns on her face chest and hand from McDonald's coffee. This was back before everybody got all lawsuit crazy. It wasn't McDonald's fault for making the coffee too hot, it was the twit that hit our car that was to blame...What about these idiots suing McDonald's because they're fat?...They should sue their mommas 'cuz they're stupid too.:lol:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Bart, did you read the linked article?



Ever think that maybe that same accident happening tomorrow wouldn't lead to burns that are as severe? And, that might be a good thing?



TJR

 

[Richard L]

The optimum temperature for brewing coffee is 205 degrees.



My coffee maker brews coffee at 200 degrees (about as accurate as i can read on my thermometer) and puts it in to an insulated caraf. The coffee remains at about 200 degrees until served.



I also ocassionaly us a Frech Press coffee maker where I boil water and turn off the heat. As soon as the boiling has stopped, I pour the water over the grounds. That water is 205-210 degrees when poured.



When coffee is poured into a cup, the cup will absorb some of that heat as will adding liquid cream (powdered creamer...not so much) The temperature of my coffee is about 185 degrees.



I totally disagree that most coffee served at home is only 135-140 degrees. I throw coffee out when it gets that cold!



...Rich

 

[Rich Stern]

I have to say, in light of the facts, that the verdict was fair. If McDonalds was unaware of previous injuries, it would not have been reasonable. But, McDonalds knew from it's customers that the potential for serious burns were there.



Bottom line, while the buyer is responsible for the use of the product, if the vendor contributes substantially by creating an well known hazzard (drive through window, easily spilled cup, substance in a dangerously hot condition), they are contributing to the injury potential.



An analogy would be a gas station with pumps that filled your car twice as fast, but occassionally sparked while doing so. The benefit to the consumer and/or the vendor is not worth the hazzard, and it's irresponsible to offer it.



Now, we could talk about the lady who was paralyzed in an Explorer rollover accident; she got a $103 million judgement against Ford. THAT was ridiculous.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

RichardL,



You must have an industrial coffee maker. My auto-drip Mr. Coffee in no way makes coffee anywhere near as hot as the local McDonalds'.



Furthermore, the heat transfer caused by placing coffee into a cup is relatively moot in the McDonald's case as they have use styro cups since I can remember, which is way different than adding to your average ceramic cup at home.



Still, the optimum "brewing" temperature is moot. I say that because the real consideration would be what is the optimum "serving" temperature, and for that, I have done some quick research and it seems to be 155 to 175 deg.



Which would explain the reported avg 30 deg drop in the serving temperature that McDonald's has achieved since the lawsuit...no doubt to put them closer to the lower end of the serving temp scale.



If McDonald's was serving coffee at or above 185 deg, than that was too hot, by most all standards I have seen.



An interesting question is how much less are severities of burns when scaled by a 155 or 160 deg cup of coffee vs one that is 30 degs hotter? Is it REALLY that significant?



TJR

 

[TomT]

"warm coffee", "frivolous lawsuits"...do you gus even read the stuff I post?

But that would involve reading!

I agree with the facts stated for this case, that it was legitimate. I was really referring to the thousands of other frivolous lawsuits filed every year. We have WAY to many lawyers in this country. That's why we have stupid warning signs on everything such as the one on my mower: "Do not stick hands under deck while mower is running". To me if your stupid enough to do that then you deserve an amputated hand.

 

[Matt Day]

Well, here is the "rest of the story"...

As described by a plaintiff law firm.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Matt,



Sure there is bias, but after you win the case you get much more credibility.



TJR

 

[Matt Day]

You think? The whole reason we're still talking about this is the public reaction to the verdict and the outrage that followed. The entire reason a law firm in Utah (that had nothing to do with this case) has it on their site is to convince people (potential clients) that lawsuits are not frivilous...The majority are outraged at something like this, they are simply trying to do damage control. Winning a lawsuit, IMO, does not give anything credibility.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Matt says: "The majority are outraged at something like this..."



Why? If a product isn't as save as it can be, what's wrong with making it safer through lawsuits like this?



It makes some companies that are only worried about profits have to do things they would otherwise be unwilling to do, like spend a few more cents on a cup of coffee. Until and unless they get hit hard, with a big lawsuit, many might never change.



The facts speak for themselves....the coffee was too hot. They made their case. They punished McDonald's and the coffee temp was lowered. If it were ONLY about the money, the case had no merit, then McDonald's wouldn't have lost and wouldn't have lowered the temp.



TJR

 

[Matt Day]

Why? If a product isn't as save as it can be, what's wrong with making it safer through lawsuits like this?

It's coffee. It's hot. Spill it on yourself, get burned.



There is nothing wrong with making products safer and I would say there are numerous cases where the legal system has produced needed reform. This is not one of them.



With logic like this, cars would not be able to exceed the highest speed limit in the country it is sold (might drive too fast and hurt yourself). :blink:

 

[Richard L]

I rechecked my coffee pot this evening after supper and the temperature were accuarate. I even tested my second cup after the post sat for45 minutes. The temperature after the pour was 1bout 170 degrees. after I added cream (half&half out of the frig) the temperature droped about 10 degrees to around 160.



My pot is not an industrial pot. Its a normal Hamilton-Beach consumer pot purchased at Target about 3 months ago.



The ideal brewing temperature of 205 degrees (+/- about 2 degrees) is a universal standard and also mentioned by Alton Brown on his show.



I think it's resonable to assume that people expect coffee to be hot and take proper precausions.



I agree that the styrofoam cup did not result in lowing the temperature of the coffee as a conventional ceramic coffee cup/mug would do, however I think the lady may have been fooled by the insulating properties of the styrofoam cup that was cooler to the touch.



I have gotten very hot coffee in a paper cup and found it difficult to hold the cup in my hands. That's primarly why most resurants switched to styrofoam cups.



Would it have made any difference if the clerk had told the lady to be carefull becaus the coffee was very hot. No, the lady would have stuck the cup between her legs and still got burned, and would have still sued McDonalds. Its the old deep pockets that created the lawsuit.



...Rich