Johnny O
Well-Known Member
You can take the player out of the 'hood but you can't take the 'hood out da playa. Keepin' it real, numsayin'?
OT: Nike to drop Michael Vick
- Thread starter Thomas Rogers
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You can take the player out of the 'hood but you can't take the 'hood out da playa. Keepin' it real, numsayin'?
Bill V
Well-Known Member
alan b--
Regarding your logic that a dog is more valuable (that might be the wrong word, but it's the best I can come up with at the moment) than a chicken or a cow, because it can be trained to do the things you mentioned, and someone who kills a dog should therefore face harsher penalties than someone who kills a cow--Do you apply that same logic to humans? Do you feel that someone who commits murder should be charged with a lesser crime if the person they kill has Downs, or is otherwise retarded/handicapped? After all, those people are less able to do valuable deeds, just like the cow and chicken are less able to do valuable deeds than the dog. For your sake, I hope you don't think that way--but it just goes to show that the reasons you gave are no reason to elevate the importance of killing a dog over killing any other animal. Don't get me wrong--the method and reason for killing are critical--killing an animal humanely for meat is far different than killing an animal for the reasons and in the manner Vick did. But beyond that, dogs, cows, chickens, etc.--they're all equivalent.
I appreciate the service you and your dogs do--but honestly, by the posts you've made here, it sounds like maybe you've been at it too long, and it's caused you to lose a bit of touch with reality...
Regarding your logic that a dog is more valuable (that might be the wrong word, but it's the best I can come up with at the moment) than a chicken or a cow, because it can be trained to do the things you mentioned, and someone who kills a dog should therefore face harsher penalties than someone who kills a cow--Do you apply that same logic to humans? Do you feel that someone who commits murder should be charged with a lesser crime if the person they kill has Downs, or is otherwise retarded/handicapped? After all, those people are less able to do valuable deeds, just like the cow and chicken are less able to do valuable deeds than the dog. For your sake, I hope you don't think that way--but it just goes to show that the reasons you gave are no reason to elevate the importance of killing a dog over killing any other animal. Don't get me wrong--the method and reason for killing are critical--killing an animal humanely for meat is far different than killing an animal for the reasons and in the manner Vick did. But beyond that, dogs, cows, chickens, etc.--they're all equivalent.
I appreciate the service you and your dogs do--but honestly, by the posts you've made here, it sounds like maybe you've been at it too long, and it's caused you to lose a bit of touch with reality...
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
It isn't very different to the animal being killed. It is still being killed, no matter what the reason is.
Why should we be more concerned about a dog's feelings about being killed than we would be for a cow, pig, or chicken being killed? I still say it only boils down to being more cute and cuddly.
How do you know that a cow isn't smarter or more feeling than a dog?
Killing is killing. There is NO DIFFERENCE.
Rationalize it all you want, but there is still NO DIFFERENCE.
Does this apply to humans? Should the retarded be euthanized for their own good (or is it for our own good?) Should aggessive humans be euthanized?
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the same reason if you are driving alone on a deserted road and get caught in a snow storm and slide off the road.
Using your logic...
1. It was an accident
2. You feel bad for your property getting hurt.
the same as leaving your dog in a locked car...
1. It was an accident
2. You feel bad for your property getting hurt.
Yes, the reasons for being charged is as a deterant and punishment.
Since the law sees animals as "property", it is property just like a car is property.
Tom
That is a slap on the wrist. Not being able to be a Police officer is punishment. A slap on the wrist is "Sorry, you can not work the K9 unit, but you can still work the beat".
It is a slap on the wrist.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen, I agree getting charged with civil charges if there is an accident that creates property loss (dog, etc).
I just don't see the reason for the punitive charges for such cases involving loved ones (pets or kids). For example, the father that accidently leaves a sleeping infant in a car seat, only for the kid to suffocate in a hot car. It happens...anyone who says it couldn't happen to them probably simply isn't living the same type of life as those that it has happened to (hectic, irregular drop-off schedules, etc). I don't think any charges will punish him, or deter him...and that's why often no charges are applied in such cases.
TJR
I just don't see the reason for the punitive charges for such cases involving loved ones (pets or kids). For example, the father that accidently leaves a sleeping infant in a car seat, only for the kid to suffocate in a hot car. It happens...anyone who says it couldn't happen to them probably simply isn't living the same type of life as those that it has happened to (hectic, irregular drop-off schedules, etc). I don't think any charges will punish him, or deter him...and that's why often no charges are applied in such cases.
TJR
Alan Beaulieu
Active Member
Caymen,
How exactly has it made me lose touch with reality? Thats a pretty bold statement. Can a cow or a chicken attack a suspect with or without command on or off leash if the suspect attacks me or is aggressive towards me in any manner? No! Will a cow or chicken alert me to approaching enemy or a bomb ahead? NO! Will a cow or a chicken block the path for you so you dont come across a trip wire? NO! (that last one is a true story from the documentary War Dogs." Yes dogs are held to a higher standard. It doesnt make it RIGHT to go around killing chickens and cows for no apparent reason just because it may be a "sport" Im not sure what the law says about going around and aimlessly killing cows and chickens but im sure there is something there. Your arqument towards me is classic with someone that doesnt work with dogs everyday. That does not know what these dogs are capable of. Go to your local police department and see when the next K9 demonstration is and actually go and watch these dogs work. Have a dog be your partner, establish rapport with your dog, bond with that dog, have your dog protect you when a suspect tries to come behind you, and than come talk to me about being out of touch with "reality" If your not law enforcement than you have no idea what it means to get kicked out of a K9 unit. Its basically career suicide. MAYBE that officer MIGHT be able to continue on the force but good luck trying to get a promotion or trying to make SGT or Detective. Its another example of peopl ethat arent cops and arent familiar with law enforcement that think they know what goes in in this world.
On another note if i seem rude or disrespecful i dont intend to by any means. I do love a good debate!!
How exactly has it made me lose touch with reality? Thats a pretty bold statement. Can a cow or a chicken attack a suspect with or without command on or off leash if the suspect attacks me or is aggressive towards me in any manner? No! Will a cow or chicken alert me to approaching enemy or a bomb ahead? NO! Will a cow or a chicken block the path for you so you dont come across a trip wire? NO! (that last one is a true story from the documentary War Dogs." Yes dogs are held to a higher standard. It doesnt make it RIGHT to go around killing chickens and cows for no apparent reason just because it may be a "sport" Im not sure what the law says about going around and aimlessly killing cows and chickens but im sure there is something there. Your arqument towards me is classic with someone that doesnt work with dogs everyday. That does not know what these dogs are capable of. Go to your local police department and see when the next K9 demonstration is and actually go and watch these dogs work. Have a dog be your partner, establish rapport with your dog, bond with that dog, have your dog protect you when a suspect tries to come behind you, and than come talk to me about being out of touch with "reality" If your not law enforcement than you have no idea what it means to get kicked out of a K9 unit. Its basically career suicide. MAYBE that officer MIGHT be able to continue on the force but good luck trying to get a promotion or trying to make SGT or Detective. Its another example of peopl ethat arent cops and arent familiar with law enforcement that think they know what goes in in this world.
On another note if i seem rude or disrespecful i dont intend to by any means. I do love a good debate!!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Here's a question for you chicken vs dog debaters.
If Vick was running a cock fighting ring, do you think he would be in as much trouble?
.
.
.
I don't. I think he would have been in trouble. But it is possible the whole thing might have been swept under the table before few ever knew.
TJR
If Vick was running a cock fighting ring, do you think he would be in as much trouble?
.
.
.
I don't. I think he would have been in trouble. But it is possible the whole thing might have been swept under the table before few ever knew.
TJR
Alan Beaulieu
Active Member
Thats a good question. Cockfighting is illegal and i would put it in the same lines as dogfighting. It is illegal for a reason. Depending on the circumstances he may or may not be in the same amount of trouble. I think he would be in less trouble if he was just apart of the dogfighting and didnt hang/drown dogs that did not perform well. Thats the part that brings t his case over the top. If he just went and attended. Its still wrong but the public and the law wouldnt be so harsh on him.
TomT
Well-Known Member
In Louisiana cockfighting is legal.
Obviously there are way to many "city" folks on this site if you can't see the difference between a cow or chicken and a dog.
Obviously there are way to many "city" folks on this site if you can't see the difference between a cow or chicken and a dog.
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
Werd.
Mark Grumpy
Well-Known Member
Yes! Texas is pretty good at it.
TomT
Well-Known Member
And proud of it! (We still have our balls.)
I do not recall saying you have lost touch with reality. Please enlighten me on this.
With that being said, you feel, just because you work with Dogs means that they hold a higher place in society than any other animal does. I respect that. Dogs are amazing animals. I can tell you stories about dogs that will spin your head. Things I have seen first hand.
I do understand that to all animals, their life is very precious to them. They like to eat, sleep, drink, and breed. Without training, a dog is just as dumb as a rat is. In that aspect, it makes them at the same level. Is there the possibility that a rat could be trained like a dog? How about a pig or chicken. Many bird owners have reported being able to call the bird by name, sleep next to them, and actually talk to the point where it seems they can logically think like a human can. My uncle, in Germany, had a Common Myna bird as a pet. The bird learned all types of stuff. The bird would bark like a dog. He took the bird to someone elses house hoping the bird would quit barking because it sounded JUST like his own dog. When he left the bird at a friends house, the bird yelled "I want to go home" (This was all in German, though) until they were tired of hearing it. When they were tired of hearing the bird say that, they sent him back home. When he went into the house, he yelled "I am home!", again in German. This is what my uncle told us, he has no reason to lie. He did pick one more annoying habit while away from home, the sound of a dog barking on the outside, so then he barked at himself.
A dog is unable to talk like a bird can. Does that mean a bird is superior to a dog?
Though, I ask you, please tell me where I said you lost touch with reality?
Tom
WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs
Well-Known Member
Alan-it was Bill V that said that not Caymen.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I don't see what is so special with dogs. You can find a number of animals that can be trained to do neat things. There are also a number of animals that have instincts that help them do neat things. Dogs are nothing special, and dogs are no better or no worse than any other animal.
Problem is-- people freak out over dogs being tortured and killed, but they think nothing about torturing and killing other animals. This is not only illogical, but it can also be very hipocritical.
People need to chill out here. Animals are given to us by God for our benefit, and we need to take care of them. This means that we can kill them for the meat or for their fur if we want to, but it doesn't mean we have the right to torture them for sport or for the sick pleasure of watching another life suffer.
Vick is a public figure, therefore his behavior is on a higher standard than the average person's behavior. With power comes responsibility. He should have known. Because he screwed up, he should be punished more severely than an ordinary person. His actions could influence some kid's behaviors and thinking.
Problem is-- people freak out over dogs being tortured and killed, but they think nothing about torturing and killing other animals. This is not only illogical, but it can also be very hipocritical.
People need to chill out here. Animals are given to us by God for our benefit, and we need to take care of them. This means that we can kill them for the meat or for their fur if we want to, but it doesn't mean we have the right to torture them for sport or for the sick pleasure of watching another life suffer.
Vick is a public figure, therefore his behavior is on a higher standard than the average person's behavior. With power comes responsibility. He should have known. Because he screwed up, he should be punished more severely than an ordinary person. His actions could influence some kid's behaviors and thinking.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
TomT said:
I'm one of the people that don't see a huge difference in killing a cow, a chicken or a dog.
And I'm not a city folk.
Butchered my fair share of chickens, pigs and cows, drowned a few kitten on the "old farm", and took an old hunting dog to the woods for one last hunt, walking back alone.
Not a huge difference in killing animals, IMHO.
TJR
I'm one of the people that don't see a huge difference in killing a cow, a chicken or a dog.
And I'm not a city folk.
Butchered my fair share of chickens, pigs and cows, drowned a few kitten on the "old farm", and took an old hunting dog to the woods for one last hunt, walking back alone.
Not a huge difference in killing animals, IMHO.
TJR
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Apparently dogfighting is common among black folks:
Bill V
Well-Known Member
alan--I'm the one who said you're losing touch with reality, not Caymen. And your statements since then have only solidified that opinion. You keep saying that dogs are more deserving of special treatment because they can do things that other animals can't. Yet there are many humans who lack the cognitive ability to do the things your dogs can do--does that mean that there should be less penalty for killing those humans than for killing a dog? You refer to killing dogs as "murder", not killing, when that's not the case. ("Murder" is a term reserved for homicide of HUMAN BEINGS.)
You truly remind me of some of the farmers around where I grew up, who never came into town, lived alone, and never interacted with anyone but their animals. Pretty soon, they come to assign human characteristics to those animals, in ways that only someone who has spent too much time around animals and not enough time around humans can do. It's almost like Tom Hanks in "Castaway" did with a volleyball--except that in that film, he was able to keep his wits about where fantasy ended and reality ended. The farmers, and you, seem to have possibly crossed that line...
You truly remind me of some of the farmers around where I grew up, who never came into town, lived alone, and never interacted with anyone but their animals. Pretty soon, they come to assign human characteristics to those animals, in ways that only someone who has spent too much time around animals and not enough time around humans can do. It's almost like Tom Hanks in "Castaway" did with a volleyball--except that in that film, he was able to keep his wits about where fantasy ended and reality ended. The farmers, and you, seem to have possibly crossed that line...
Alan Beaulieu
Active Member
Bill,
First of all dont tell me that you appreciate the service my dog and i do and than turn around and compare me to a lonely out of touch with life farmer. You have absolutley no clue about anything in my life. Secondly, im very aware that assigning human characteristics to a dogs behavior is the wrong way to interpret what a dog wants and needs or a way to interpret a dogs behavior. You are the last person that should be trying to lecture me about dogs. Thirdly, there is a differnce between killing an animal from hunting, or for food and drowning/hanging a dog just because they lost a fight to a more powerful, more aggressive dog. Your whole arqument is nothing more of an attack on me. You are going WAY to deep into it with that idiotic question about humans lacking any cognitive ability and if that meant there should be less penalty for killing those humans with a dog. I have never made any comparison of killing dogs to killing humans. Another thing dont attempt to put yourself above me just because i am in the military and you think you can sit there and put words in bold and highlight. Drowning a dog, hanging a dog is murder. My arqument isnt that if someone kills a cat they should get a lesser penalty than someone that kills a dog. Theres ways of killing that is socially acceptable and there are ways of killing that is not socially acceptable, thus making it illegal. So go back to your little farm land and each day that you walk around free in this country....remember that i have fought and will be fighting so you can continue to have free speech and attack people in debates the way you do
First of all dont tell me that you appreciate the service my dog and i do and than turn around and compare me to a lonely out of touch with life farmer. You have absolutley no clue about anything in my life. Secondly, im very aware that assigning human characteristics to a dogs behavior is the wrong way to interpret what a dog wants and needs or a way to interpret a dogs behavior. You are the last person that should be trying to lecture me about dogs. Thirdly, there is a differnce between killing an animal from hunting, or for food and drowning/hanging a dog just because they lost a fight to a more powerful, more aggressive dog. Your whole arqument is nothing more of an attack on me. You are going WAY to deep into it with that idiotic question about humans lacking any cognitive ability and if that meant there should be less penalty for killing those humans with a dog. I have never made any comparison of killing dogs to killing humans. Another thing dont attempt to put yourself above me just because i am in the military and you think you can sit there and put words in bold and highlight. Drowning a dog, hanging a dog is murder. My arqument isnt that if someone kills a cat they should get a lesser penalty than someone that kills a dog. Theres ways of killing that is socially acceptable and there are ways of killing that is not socially acceptable, thus making it illegal. So go back to your little farm land and each day that you walk around free in this country....remember that i have fought and will be fighting so you can continue to have free speech and attack people in debates the way you do
