Questions and a Good Answer

[Mark B]

TJR,



Oh, they're needed. No, of course not all of them but they should all share an equal chance of being called-up. That's the citizen-soldier, social contract ideal this country was built on. If we're going to persecute a long war to protect the homeland, the burden should not fall on less than 1% of our population.



The Administration knows it would be political suicide to ask America for more than volunteers to wage this war.

 

[Bill V]

TJR--The plan is quite simple:



a) Get on planes.

b) Go home.



Sure, it might leave the region a mess--but it's a mess now anyway, so that's not a change.

 

[Bill V]

fy10lyny, when you ask, "Shouldn't ALL of America's youth be pressed into service...?"--why only the youth? Why discriminate against the young? What's good for them is good for everyone!

 

[Mark B]

Bill V,



Absolutely. Whatever it takes. This should be an all-out national effort until our troops are home and we're as safe and independent as we can be.

 

[EddieS'04]

How does such simple Q&A turn into a politcal fight, amazing...For the record I volunteered for the Army, I volunteered for 2 tours back to back in 'NAM. Iam sure my parents were worried and would have griefed..but they would have understood the conviction for the cost..my dad served in the Navy during WW II....



All have a good one and be nice to one another...Someday this war could very well be on our shores..Maybe there are not any WMD's..For those that have the understanding, this is prohetic and has to happen..I would rather see it stay over there for now...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

fy10lyny says:

TJR, Oh, they're needed. No, of course not all of them but they should all share an equal chance of being called-up. That's the citizen-soldier, social contract ideal this country was built on. If we're going to persecute a long war to protect the homeland, the burden should not fall on less than 1% of our population.

So not all the able bodied men (and women) 18 to 40 are needed instead we only need some smaller figure...a figure totaling a number of people higher than that of our current active military; that's your conjecture; and you further conjecture that we "should do somethign" to make this more widespread enlistment happen.



If you agree, what should that "something" be, Fy?



I bet if military service paid more, substantially more, you would get increased volunteers, probably more than enough to close the gap you perceive.



Of course, you could reinstate the draft. Is that what you want?



Are we all grown-ups, here? Can we talk to each other like grown-ups? I hope so. As one grown up to another, let me make the following points:



- Let's not presume that the war in Iraq is any different, or less noble than Vietnam, or the Korean war, or WWII or WWI for that matter. In all of those wars we were trying to extend freedom to someone in a far-off land; AND AT THE SAME TIME protect our interests. We have never really been in a war for our very survival, so to that point, all American wars have been avoidable (I am glad we fought them, and helped the people we helped...don't read anything more there than written).



- There hasn't been a purely noble war in our history that I can think of...not even the Civil War, as that's one of the most revisionistically portrayed wars in our history (if you really think that was all about freeing the slaves, you might want to read up on the subject).



- Fighting wars takes people, and many of these people are going to die. The larger and longer the war, the more people you need. If you need enough, there will be a draft, it's that simple...deadly simple.



- In times of war, like this (and in the past), we are not so much "at war" as we are "policing the world", and, frankly it doesn't take all our able bodied young men and women to police the world the way we do it today, no more than it does to police the communities in our country or to fight fires as a fireman throughout the USA.



- Speaking of police and fireman, there are JOBS like those out there that people volunteer for everyday, where they put their lives on the line. And, just like I don't expect everyone should have to be a policeman or a fireman, or even have a likely chance of being called to be one, I feel the same way about being a soldier.



- With all that said, I have NOTHING BUT THE UTMOST RESPECT for those that DO volunteer to put their lives on the line to serve their country and their community, in whatever form that takes.



So, when I hear "More should serve!", and "Hey, Contard, why don't YOU enlist?", I think to myself is that REALLY what we have fought for, and is that really why we maintain our global interests...so can be viewed as the country with the largest percentage of its population FORCED (through law or public opinion) to be part of a standing military?



TJR

 

[stgry1 chris]

Haven't you guys learned NOT to mix politics with cars!!?? Everyone will have different opinions which they are entitled too, that's what makes this the best country on the planet!! I served AGAINST my parents wishes when I was younger and THANK GOD I did. I wouldn't change it for the world. Our experiences change everything!! GOD bless AMERICA! My .02

 

[Thomas Rogers]

And thank you stgry1 for your service!

 

[Nelson Atwell]

We had a discussion in our office about the draft. A troop of ours was picked as a "non-volunteer" for an extended 365-day deployment. He dragged his feet and showed up unprepared to deploy a day before he was to leave. When bringing this up to his Superintendent, the response was "You know he WAS a non-volunteer and only had 20 days notice". Everyone in our office and his Commander agreed that was a BS answer.



The next day, the Supervisior of that Airman escorted him to every appointment and made sure he got on the plane.



We agreed that the lack of a draft has allowed the General public and even some current military members to see military service as something that is totally voluntary. They don't see it as an obligation of citizenship. There is no realization that if there were no volunteers there would be another draft, and that any able-bodied person could be ordered to duty at a moment's notice.



How many people today would involuntarily give up their good-paying job and leave their family behind with 20 days notice? How about if you knew you would be going overseas to fight a war? What if you were 42 years old, and you had a wife and two children to support? That is exactly what happened to my grandfather in World War II. He left Kentucky and was sent to Japan until the end of the War.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

NelsonOKC says:

How many people today would involuntarily give up their good-paying job and leave their family behind with 20 days notice? How about if you knew you would be going overseas to fight a war? What if you were 42 years old, and you had a wife and two children to support?

Not many......but for the past several decades it seems we have had enough.



If we really feel there isn't enough now, for the wars we are fighting, then we either need to fight smarter or fewer wars, OR we need to entice more volunteers. Raise taxes and raise military pay and you will get more recruits, I bet.



TJR

 

[Dale Carlson]

Amazingly enough, new enlistments aside, re-enlistments have also never been higher. In addition to that, DoD Secretary Rumsfeld is attempting to shrink the force (or in Pentagon-speak, "right-sizing" or "force-shaping"). Not sure why anyone would think that a draft would be needed or even where you would put all of those non-volunteers.

 

[Josh Langel]

We're still early in this new era. Wait till the real crap hits the fan, when we are at war with a nation that truly is a complete threat. The Japanese invaded China long before WWII was in full throttle, so Iraq may just be the prelude to the hell to come. If we stop and think that Iraq is it, we're mistaken. Just wait. Hell is coming ... it won't be about the troops in Iraq and Afghanistan, but the troops in Iran, Korea, and do I dare say China?



Wait for the Asian theater of war to break out. Wait till North Korea decides to do something crazy ... it's all coming ... no matter who's right or who is wrong, a bigger war is coming... This century is very young. (considering the 20th century saw a lot of wars)...:unsure:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Yeah, Kefguy...



Haven't you heard? It is all "poor minorities" that are enlisting and re-enlisting while the rich, conservative-types are going off to business schools and then to work in corp America and get coddled by "the administration!" as they fight for big business and oil. That's what's not fair! That's what I kinda think is being implied by many these days. Rather than respect the people making the sacrifices they are being stereotyped as our most career and income challenged young people, as if they could do NOTHING else but fight and die...



BTW, the son of one of our neighbors just got back from Iraq. Partial loss of hearing in one ear, loss of most hearing in another, and a permanent bad back from when his humm-vee was under attack. And his families net worth is probably a few millions....he didn't have to go, but he did!



He came back just before Christmas. All I could do is shake his hand and thank him. One thing I would NEVER do is consider him a victim, someone who was "tricked", or deceived, or somebody who was forced into enlisting because it was his "best opportunity." No, I just recognized he was a young man, willing to give it all to serve his country...and as I said, all I could do, and I suspect all he really wanted and needed was MY THANKS!



TJR

 

[Mark Grumpy]

TJR,

thanks for saying "Thanks" to your neighbor. That is exactly the point I was trying to make about the negativity caused by Mrs. Sheehan. Lets grive those lost, but celebrate those that come home.



grump

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

We've been at war for three years with the same core group of volunteer soldiers. Is there no sympathy out there for these men and women? Sure they volunteered but 3 years of multiple tours, tour extensions, stop-loss extensions, inactive call-ups and the like?

I guess poor saps (like my grandfather) who were on station in France, Italy, Germany, England, Africa, China, India, Russia, Northern Europe, et al for 3 years, without seeing family, without Christmas with his wife, etc was preferable to 365 days in the desert.... perspective? During WWII we had MILLIONS of soldiers who left home one day, only to return 3-4 YEARS later.



What's the life expectancy of a soldier in Iraq? Now compare that to Vietnam. Den Bien Phu anyone? How about a real Military failure... Bay Of Pigs - executed by JFK. JFK got us into Vietnam. Johnson continued it. Obviously we want to follow Bill Clinton's policy in Somalia, we loose 29 soldiers and pull out, leaving a massive glut of security, resulting Civial War, ethnic cleansing and warring factions.



I always thought lefties were all about protecting the weak and less fortunate? They were for peace, but only for the US (not the millions of women and children, let alone men, that were killed in Kosovo, Yugoslavia, Haiti, and Somalia after Black Hawk Down (the US lost a total of 44 soldiers in all of these "incidents").



-We lost more soldiers in the first 1/2 hour of D-Day than we have in three years in Afganistand and Iraq combined



-The enemy killed more US citizens on 9/11 than we have lost soldiers total (2819 to 2274)



-There are more MIA's from Vietnam than soldiers killed in Iraq (2338 to 2274)



-Do you lefties also realize that one of your heroes (FDR) intermed between 112,000-120,000 American citizens of Japanese decent in concentrations camps (kinda makes Gitmo pale in comparison, population of 660 as a high).



-How about Robert Kennedy wiretapping MLK with few if any warrents?



-What about Bill Clinton's Enigma program?



-Is it coincidence that we lobbed a few $1,200,000 cruise missles into empty tents in Afganistan the night before Impeachment hearings were to begin?



Gimme the facts on Bush, if you have them. I'm talking FACTS, not opinions.

 

[Bill V]

R Shek, you know that giving you those facts would be pointless--either you'd claim that they're untrue, or that they're not proven, or rather than acknowledging that Bush does have weaknesses (like every human being ever born), you'd just try to divert attention from them by pointing at some of the weaknesses of non-conservative leaders of the past.



Bush is not an awful person. But he's not a saint, either. You'll gain a lot of credibility if you stop acting like he is.



Similarly, Clinton is not a saint. But he's not an evil person, either. You'll grain a lot of credibility if you stop acting like he is.

 

[Mark B]

RShek,



Here's a fact: This is the first protracted war the U.S. has conducted without a general call-up.



Bush and the Administration clearly expected a different post-invasion Iraq than the one they've got. We've been there 3 years and counting with around 150,000 troops, and have been unable to impose the stability and security required to restore Iraq.



Can't say it's a fact, but my impression, that our forces are stretched thin and more or less exhausted. Just look at the Guard & Reserves. In Vietnam, 1 in 300 was Guard or Reserve; in Iraq/Afghanistan, it's 1 in 3. You don't think those 'poor saps' deserve some relief?



You used WW2 as an example of sacrifice, so will I. That was a national effort. Draft, rationing, recycling, factory conversions, war bonds, you name it. The country put it's collective life on hold until the mission was complete and the troops were home. I'll even quote some of my stuff as well:

When does this become a national effort? Show some leadership Bush. It's been easy for you to commit and exhaust our volunteer forces. If this war on terror is important enough to expend our volunteer forces for 3 years and counting, then, it's important enough to involve the entire nation.

Short of some draconian measures at home (draft?, oil rationing?, 'pay as we go' spending?), I don't see a shift in the status quo. We'll continue to expend the lives of several hundred volunteer soldiers per year and Iraq & Afghanistan will remain the violent tribal/sectarian messes they've been for a long time.



First, we need to decide if any level of US presence can build a democratic Iraq. If so, we need to go in with overwhelming numbers for security and stability (way different than numbers for military victory). If not, we need to get out and spend those billions on defense and energy independence.



BTW, Loved reading the big Laundry List o' Facts. Impressive.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Similarly, Clinton is not a saint. But he's not an evil person, either. You'll grain a lot of credibility if you stop acting like he is.

I did actually vote for the guy. I'm also still waiting on the proof that he did a lot of good. He can take VERY LITTLE credit for the "good economy", he did more to weaken us in the world than strengthen us, he did not treat the White House as the People's Property, the government was run more like a country club.... I'm definately not calling him a saint, but like all of us, he definately is a sinner.

Bush is not an awful person. But he's not a saint, either. You'll gain a lot of credibility if you stop acting like he is.

Not saying he is a saint either. I actually differ from the President in many areas, including:

-Spending

-Border Security

-Entitlement Expansion

-The constant ammo his is giving his protractors



However, most of the big problems are not entirely just his Most of it actually stems from or must be authorized by Congress.

Bush and the Administration clearly expected a different post-invasion Iraq than the one they've got. We've been there 3 years and counting with around 150,000 troops, and have been unable to impose the stability and security required to restore Iraq.

There is some debate about this, but generally speaking, I believe that you are correct, but I do not know this for a fact. However, how long were we in Germany with the Marshall Plan before stability and security was restored? We were there 4+ years rebuilding (1945-1949), but it wasn't until 1989 that Germany was completely whole and one people again. Let's just look at the "Report To Congress, Measuring Stability and Security in Iraq", done by the DoD to Congress in February 2006:



Three Sections: Political, Economic and Security

-Political: The Iraqi People have participated in 3 national elections to date, the most recent of which had more population voting (77%), nearly DOUBLE the US had in 2004 (42.5%). A Permanent Constiution was approved. The UN Election commision deems the results credible.



Looks pretty good so far.



-Economic: The Iraqi Economy demonstrated MACROECONOMIC Stability, the currency is stable with favorable foreign exchange rates, substantial debt reduction, GDP growth of 2.6% (compared to 3.1% in the US in 2003), and a 40% increase in Cell Phone subscribers.



-Security: Over 3/4's of all insurgent attacks do not result in casulties (as defined by the US Military, any bodily harm is a casulty) or significant damge. The amount of car bombs being detected and diffused grows every day. The people of Iraq are often times pointing out IED's when US or Iraqi troops arrive. As of January 2006, 98 Iraqi Army and Special Forces batallions are conducting counter-terrorism operations. 37 Iraqi Army Batallions control their own battle space. The Iraqi army controls 460 square miles of Baghdad and 11,600 square miles thoughout the rest of the country, an increase of 4,000 square miles since October. 107,000 soldiers have been trained, an increase of 19,000 since October. 82,000 police have been trained, and increase of 13,000 since October. 38,000 Ministry of Interior forces have been amassed.



You get the hint.

Short of some draconian measures at home (draft?, oil rationing?, 'pay as we go' spending?),

What part of ALL VOULENTEER ARMY do lefties not get? The Army and all forces have repeatedly stated they do not want a draft, especially at this time. They want soldiers willing, ready and able to fight on their own accord, not because they would be arrested if they did not get on the bus to boot camp. Oil rationing? I'm doing my part by not driving my ST nearly as much as I had been. If we would drill in ANWR or off the coasts to develop our own oil supplies, would oil rationing be necessary? Pay as we<

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

I agreed before I disagreed, but now I agree, I think? I'm practicing for a political run.

 

[TrainTrac]

Cindy Sheehan lost any credibility as a grieving mother when she began to do things like going to Venezuela and cuddle up to Hugo Chavez and bash the U.S. and President Bush alongside him. It's sad that her grief has allowed her to be exploited by the left and that now she's getting a high from all the attention and is attempting to milk her 15 minutes of fame as long as she can.



As far as the draft, yes, men were drafted in WWII, but because the U.S. military had been decimated and reduced to a hollow force after WWI. This was also the reason for the massive mobilization of American industry for the war effort. We couldn't go to war on a global scale without a rapid buildup of manpower and equipment. But, after Pearl Harbor, recruiting offices were also getting volunteers faster than they could process them. Why did all this happen? Because the nation rallied together with an incredible resolve to fight the war to win Is this happening now? Nope! Sure there was a bit of flag-waiving after 9/11, but it didn't last long. Most people went back to their lives, forgetting about the war on terrorism.



And for the record, the draft didn't go away after WWII. It was in effect until after Vietnam, even during peace time. Every able-bodied male was required to serve. So there wasn't a "massive call-up" just for Korea and Vietnam. It's a proven fact that an all volunteer fighting force is much more effective than a conscripted one. I agree with my fellow service members, in that we don't want a draft, we want people who want to serve.

I'm sure those words will be of great comfort to Mrs. Sheehan as she watches the Bush daughters party their way through young adulthood.

That comment is so weak!:lol: I haven't seen any of the Kennedy or Kerry kids rushing to enlist. How about Chelsea Clinton?