School Dicipline

[walter clark]

I know this can be a hot topic with many opinions on this but I just thought I would run this buy you guys and see what comes out. I have a younger daughter that came home last week and was upset about a new diciplinary action taking place in her middle school. First let me say my kid hasent been in any troubble, is an honor student and has never had any infractions agenst her. She is just simply worried that the kids that are being treated this way is not correct. The punishment is for minor infractions and is not in the school book of guidelines and rules. Durring the Lunch/Recess periond the students enjoy a social time of about 40 min. in the gym after eating their meal in the lunch room. The offending students durring this time are marched in single file along a blank wall and are made to face the wall standing for this time publicly punished while the other kids enjoy their time. Kids at this age are particularly vicious and have adopted a habit of taunting and jeering at the kids being punished. We as parents dont feel public humilation is a proper method of punishment. We dont have a problem with dicipline like detention, loss of privilidges, even suspension for major infractions. Would you as a parent have a problem with you child being displayed inb ths fashon ? Even at work we take people into a private setting before correcting them, even though there kids dont they still deserve some measure of diginity? Ok fire away.....

 

[Dale Carter]

Take the kids who are taunting and jeeering and walk them to the wall, too. Middle schoolers are old enough to learn that you earn respect and dignity through your actions and you can lose the respect of others the same way. Junior high and high school are too late to try and teach that to them. The real question is, "How many kids return to the wall day after day?". Is it effective?



My middle school paddled us in the gym during PE while the boys watched and the girls were on the other end of the gym 90 ft away. I never got that paddling becasue I BEHAVED so that I WOULDN'T get it. I remember a few fights and no drugs or alcohol or smart ass kids in the five years (5th through 9th grade) that I was there. That held true for my friends who stayed there for high school. I transferred to a school with a more "enlightened" approach and saw more fights in the first month than the previous five years. I could also buy any drug or alcohol that I wanted and easy sex wasn't far away. The first school suspended students from ALL extracurriccular activities if they received a D on the report card until a subsequent report card was issued 6 weeks later. They even walked on to the practice field to remove myself and two others athletes from practice while they called a track meet that was underway to make one of our athletes ineligible. They aslo graded the athletes first. The other allowed a kid to play varsity basketball after missing the first week of tryouts due to a six week out-of-school suspension for alcohol posssession. The first graded on a 7-point scale with no bell curve, the second on a 10 with a bell curve. Both were state championship contenders in several sports.



The schools were about six miles apart with very similar demographics. I remember the teachers and administrators at the first school with greater respect and admiration than I do the second. Draw your own conclusions how I feel about your middle schools policies.

 

[Dre L]

The way you treat them as kids is how they will act as adults. There is no punishment here, only humiliation and a chance for other kids to be the humiliators.



In my high school (private), we would need to stay after school and march in a circle for an unspecified amount of time. This could be as little as 45 minutes if everyone showed up and behaved properly, but various factors would have an effect on this.



On rainy days, we would be required to sit indoors for the same time, and many of us preferred to be outside walking (or running) than having to sit there. You couldn't study, or read, or do homework, just sit there.



Now this action of facing the wall in front of others, it's the in front of others thing that seems to be an issue. The intent here is to embarass or shun, while making an example of someone, making it rather unfair. 1 is that that isn't very civil, and 2 is that the other kids don't care about "examples" (unless they're getting the crap kicked out of them).



I think the rule should be stopped, and those who enforced it marched up against the wall to be made an example of. See how they like it.



Like you said, in adult society, even prisoners, are entitled to dignity.



edit: I like Dale's idea of marching the other kids who laugh at them up there. That does teach respect for others.



I like military style "everyone drops because this guy was an idiot" actions. In other words, an entire classroom suffers for one guy misbehaving. However that also tends to lead to the one guy getting his @$$ kicked, in which case the entire classroom should be (again) disciplined.



This sort of eventually gets everyone in line, or leads to a repeat offender getting expelled.



I think they definitely need to do something about the school disciplinary system.

 

[Travis Munday]

I don't see too much wrong with it....detention, restrictions, and suspensions don't really work....it's the same kids over and over again getting these. Now, being embarassed infront of your peers in a physically unharming way seems, to me at least, very effective. I mean, most kids that age have a hard enough time going in the front of the class to read a report or do a math problem, much less this. I also agree the kids taunting and jeering should receive the same punishment.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

I think this is a great idea. Many kids don't see the traditional "Noon Detention" as a deterent because it is a time to hang with their homies, get some homework done, kick back, whatever.



This approach makes the Noon detention a deterent as it isn't that much fun anymore.



Now, there is this whole notion of "punish in private, praise in public" which I tend to agree with. But I find this new approach less about public punishment than it is about removing the appeal of a segregated Noon detention.



TJR

 

[Travis Munday]

TJR, please don't say say "hang with thier homies" again....now I've got to clean the Dr. Pepper I spat out off of my computer....lol.

 

[Fred]

:lol:

 

[Jeff C]

I remember in middle school the kids that were in "in school suspension" would come up from the basement classroom and get lunch while everyone else was eating. They came in single file, no talking, and of course we all thought it would be humiliating to be in that line.



Frankly, I don't think parents should have much of a say. If their kids are being problematic, the school should do whatever is necessary to correct the problem. Parents that have a problem with this can take their kids out of school or move to another district.

 

[Heather Rueckert]

I thinks it's totally wrong. Just the opposite of how my school district would approach discipline.

Humiliation is totally wrong, and kids that do break the rules should be taken out of the enviroment in which the infraction was committed, and dealt with one on one in private. -Heather

 

[Boodrodon Dykes]

Back 5 yrs ago, when I was in 5th grade, when we were in troble we did have to sit out and weren't able to play, but we were able to sit and watch the others play. Also it was no longer than 3/4ths of the reccess we had to sit out. And if the others taunted the kids in trouble they would then be in trouble for that and they would then sit out. It was to an extent as Walters story. That shouldnt be done and I think the punishment at my 5ht grade, wasn't to harsh and is a little better, but they should still take kids in private and talk to them







Boodro

 

[Michelle Widell]

For me, I'd appreciate that the school was taking action to make sure my kid and others are respecting authority. I think that's severely lacking today from when I was a kid.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Sorry Tiger, send the cleaning bill to my hood!

 

[Nelson Atwell]

Humiliating children by parading them out in front of their peers. What a novel idea. Do you think putting a dunce cap on their heads would make it even more effective?



There was a similar story in the news about a year ago. These people humilated another group of people by putting dog collars on them and having them stack up on each others backs in a pyramid. Granted these prisoners were also naked, but the resulting humiliation was the same.



This treatment at Abu Graib prison was found to be against the Geneva Conventions, since it is unlawful to subject prisoners to humiliation. Do you think school children should be given at least the same protections that the World gives Prisoners of War?

 

[Travis Munday]

Are you seriously trying to compare Abu Grave to this school's choice of punishment? Maybe if the kids were naked, put in deplorable living conditions, thier picture taken, and then posted worldwide on the news, you might have a point....

 

[Austin Tatious]

Middle School Teacher weighing in on this one...



I think that "consequence" is wrong. I don't think parents, teachers or the board would like it. It's humiliation without any benefit to the child or the school community.



Where I teach, we have a variety of consequences that fit the crime...some are more effective than others. If you litter or break something, you are on lunch KP. If you fail a class you spend 15 lunch periods remediating to raise the grade to a D. We also have detention and Saturday school - Yikes!



Middle schoolers go from being sweet elementary school kids to teenagers ready to bust out of the little kid mold. Some become sexually active, some start smoking and some start abusing drugs. though most do what their parents taught them.



Middle School - it's great work if you can get it!

 

[EddieS'04]

IMO....Humiliation can be a deterent, but it is wrong. It doesnt teach respect. I think it will intice more humiliation from the other kids. Bullys are humiliators. I thought that is what we are trying to remove from our schools......

 

[Tom Schindler]

Do it the way our parents had to. Put a dunce cap on a kid. This "new wave" of punishemnt doesn't work. We have more kids getting into trouble then ever before. When our parents went to school, they learned what respect was and they knew if they did wrong, not only would they get punished at scool, but they would get it at home too.



Bring back the black rubber paddle and swat those punks in the behind. If anyone laughs, let them get it oo. it wont take long before the dumb ones start to wise up.





Tom

 

[Greg Bosin]

I've been on a school board for over nine years and I got to say I don't think this is a character building discipline practice.

I remember the days of the paddle and for some that was effective. If someone laughed or jeered while someone else was getting the paddle that only put them in line as the next victim. Humiliating, yes, but your peers where supposed to kind of share the pain so as to make sure you didn't want to see the paddle.

Having your peers heckling you is only allowing them to become part of an immature response that won't do anything to build character for those being punished or their peers.



Coporal punishment has been completely taken out of public schools because of lawsuits and high court decisions. The Oregon legislature tried to bring back some limited form but it never made it out of committee. It just would have created more lawsuits, at least by the ACLU.



While we need to be tough on discipline I think more thought needs to be expended if you want everyone to learn from it. Being in the military the "Eveyone gets punished" method as mentioned previously sometimes works. Although, it could trigger mutiny.:wacko:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Why is this humilating? Standing with one's head in the corner is the way many parents perform "time out" for young kids.



I think many here looked at this as "humiliating" because the original contributor said:

Kids at this age are particularly vicious and have adopted a habit of taunting and jeering at the kids being punished. We as parents dont feel public humilation is a proper method of punishment.

Maybe the intent wasn't to humilate. Maybe there were other reasons, like staff reductions have made it such that the punished and the non-punished students have to share the same place and time due to too few teachers to watch all the students.



And, maybe the humilation and taunting aspect is really caused by the "good kids" who obviously need discipline of their own.



If my kid did something bad and had to stand against the wall, then I would hope that he or she does his or her time and reflects on what they did wrong. I also expect that if someone taunted my child while being punished, regardless of the circumstances, that said student would also be punished or at least reprimanded.



All punishment at a middle-school level is humiliating to a certain extent, and it can be made worse by other students regardless of where the punishment occurs. That taunting is the problem, not the location of the punishment.



But, I see in this PC world, it's better to just complain about how things are being done, to the point that nothing gets done, then call a spade a spade (or in this case, a bad apple a bad apple). A kid that taunts and delights in the misfortune and/or punishment of another is a bad apple.



TJR

 

[walter clark]

An update and anwser post

A couple of factors led to the decision of useing this method. On was that by adding another layer to the diciplinary onion it was a longer process for a student to reach the final layer that is expulsion (i think thats spelled right???). This is because the schools in this state are graded every year, suspensions and expulsions are held agenst them as failures hence a negitive effect on their raiting. Also as mentioned staff limitations and willingness to perform the work of monitoring these offenders. I went to Millitary school as a kid and this is some of the reason for my concern. My kids dont go to that type and I havent enrolled my kids in said tyype of school and so dont expect this regimine of dicipline to be taking place. If we wanted this then we would had enrolled our kids in that type of instution. Why is it that everyone assumes that in the good ol days when we beat em and did alot of other stuff (dunce cap) things were better???? Crime, Proverty, and Igornance were prevolant then just as today you just didnt have CNN to tell you about it 24 hrs. a day. I belive that if it has gotten to the point that the school has to dicipline my children for poor behaviour or not meeting work standard it is my fault as a parent. I have failed to instill in my kid the proper motivation and drive to behave in a civilized mannor and to push themselves to excell.

We talked to the district supertendant and voiced our concerns. He was very thoughtfull and concise. He said that in his and the districts chid behavioural specialist that this type of punishment was not productive to a students behavioural correction. Also that the schools wernt allowed to expand or edit the districts codes(the new diciplinary action) that had been carefully laid out by many proffesionals in their respective fields for the good if the students and the legal protection of the district. He also thanked us for our concern for the welfare of the kids and wished that more parents were concerned even when the subject dosent affect their kid directly.