Texas considering similar immigration law

[Thomas Rogers]

Richard L, let me take your points one-by-one:

The only difference in this new Arizona law is that the suspect does not have to be suspected of violating any law or ordinance to be stopped.

That difference is simply too much for me. I would prefer to live in a country in which its people are stopped by police and required to provide identification ONLY if it the case that they are suspected of a detainable offense. More on my issue with this below...

You may feel uncomfortable with police being able to make decisions as to whether anyone appears suspicous enough to be stopped. If you lived in Texas, New Mexico, or Arizona you would understand that the police in these states know how to spot illegal aliens but were powerless to do anything.

Yes, I feel very uncomfortable that a police officer can "look" at a person from their outward appearance or actions, and assume with resonable suspicion that they are an illegal. I especially have issue if the person being stopped is otherwise doing absolutely nothing wrong. Driving 6 in a car, living 10 to a house, not speaking English, and being brown skinned (IMHO) will likely be the suspicion an officer needs, and frankly, for me, that's simply not sufficient. Absent of defining the burden of proof for suspicions, I am compelled to fear the worst. I don't think that is unreasonable.

This new law will allow them to take action to stop making this country a safe heaven to illegal aliens.

At what cost?



I submit that if even 1 of 100 people stopped and detained are in fact legal residents, or even worse, U.S. citizens then I think the cost is too high. I suspect that police would be thrilled with identifying 99 of 100 people stopped as illegals. I would be too if I were them. I would NOT be thrilled if I were that one legal/citizen. Would you?



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

I don't really think you understand the problem we face down here. Police do not have the authority to arrest anyone for being an illegal alien. They cannot even arrest him for traffic violations since they are only misdemeanor charges. If they suspect someone is an illegal alien they can only take what ever information they can obtain, and pass that on to the INS (Immigration & Naturalization Service). Someday the INS may get around to trying to locate the suspected illegal alien, but by then he has moved 3 times and perhaps even went back to Mexico.



to give you a little more insight to the problem we face as residents in these border states, let me explain what happened about 34 years ago.



My oldest daughter was rear-ended wihile stopped at a traffic light on her way to the local community college. The driver of the old pickup that hit her was a Mexican national, with no insurance, no drivers license, an inspection sticker that appeared to have been peeled off the windshield of another vehicle.



Police were called to the scene and an officer who spoke fluent Spanish talk to the driver of the pickup truck for a few minutes and got very little information from the driver, and then let the driver go without even giving him a ticket!! In the mean time my daughter had to stay at the scene and was interviewed by the police for another 20+ minutes.



When she asked why the other driver was allowed to leave the officer said that he was probably an illegal alien and they could not do anything about it. It was pointless to give him a ticket since the information he provided was probably false. It was a problem for the INS and they would send the INS a report with the information they got from the driver ???



Had the Arizona law been in effect, they could have arrested the man as suspected illegal alien. That's why this law is so important. It allows officers to make arrests of suspected illegal aliens even when there is no link to an arrestable crime.



The illegal aliens know how the system works, and the police know how the illegal aliens work the system. The police will not be randomly stopping people on the street asking for ID. They will be targeting people who are showing sufficient behaviour to cause that officer to stope them.



Even now police in every state get calls to check on a suspicious person and it is perfectly legal to ask for their ID and what they are doing there. Providing the police with ID upon their request is manditory not conscentual. It they don't/won't show ID they can be at minimum detain until the police can assertain the individual's true identity. If the person shows ID, and has no wants or warrants, the police will let him go. With Arizona's law if that person is suspected of being an illegal alien, he can be arrested even though no crime ore misdemeanor was committed.



I think it's just too easy for people in PA or other states that do not have the severe illegal alien problems like the border states to dismiss the problem and assume it's a violation of the 4th Amendment. The law just empowers the police to arrest illegal aliens and hold them for the INS which they could not do before unless there was reason to believe that the person was involved in an arrestable crime.



Most of the arrests from Arizona's new law will probably be as traffic stops for minor violations like broken tail light etc,. Now they can ask for ID, and make arrests. In the past they could not make an arrest even if they knew the person was in this country illegally...It was not their juristiction and they could only pass the info on to the INS. And we know the INS cannot even track the aliens who enter this country legally, much less the illegal aliens.



...Rich

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Richard L,



I said I would probably have a different perspective if I lived in Texas, or Calif, or Arizon, etc.



But I don't.



So, my goal to protect our civil liberties is more pure, IMHO, not burdened by the bias of an uncomfortable situation.



Regardless, you said above:

Police do not have the authority to arrest anyone for being an illegal alien.

Okay, simple...fix THAT problem alone. Give them the authority.

They cannot even arrest him for traffic violations since they are only misdemeanor charges.

Again, fix that problem. When stopping someone for a traffic violation or some other offense and that it is THEN clear the person is not legal give police the authority to arrest them.

If they suspect someone is an illegal alien they can only take what ever information they can obtain, and pass that on to the INS (Immigration & Naturalization Service). Someday the INS may get around to trying to locate the suspected illegal alien, but by then he has moved 3 times and perhaps even went back to Mexico.

Tips to the INS, whether from a policeman or from a citizen of a suspected illegal should be followed up on in a timely manner. Police can't solve that issue. Giving police the authority to essentially BE INS agents isn't the answer, IMHO.



Seems clear to me. Give the police the authority to arrest illegals if stopped for some other infraction. Beef up INS to respond to tips from police and citizens of suspected illegals.



BUT DO NOT give police the authority to ask people on the street to "show me your papers", for no other reason than to see if the person is an illegal. If you fix the INS issues and the authority to detain an illegal issue, then I don't think the stop and identify is required.



I think the main issue here is that the INS is ineffective. Fix that problem. Don't turn the police into INS agents just because the INS sucks. When we expect less from our government they will surely comply.



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

Okay, simple...fix THAT problem alone. Give them the authority.

YES, NOW YOU GET IT! That what the Arizona Law does. It is not giving police the authority to violate anyone's 4th Amendment rights and it does not mean they will stopping people on the street asking for ID. They can already stop people for traffic offenses and people who are acting suspicious but could not do anything even if they were certain that they were illegal alines. Now they can detain and arrest them. Nothing else is going to change.



Because the law does not specificly state what the legal criteria requements are to make the officer think that the individuals are illegal aliens, everyone is jumping to the conclusion that police are just going to be stopping Hispanic looking people (Racial Profiling).



There are no guarantees that every police officer will have a legal probable cause to stop and question a suspected illegal alien, just as there is no guarantee that you or I will not be subjected to an illegal search. But watch for the cries of Police State, and Fasist Pigs when the first officer screws up and stops someone without a legal probable cause, yet it probably happens every day in every state...Some Police officer lets the power of they badge go to their heads.



...Rich

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Richard L said:

YES, NOW YOU GET IT! That what the Arizona Law does. It is not giving police the authority to violate anyone's 4th Amendment rights and it does not mean they will stopping people on the street asking for ID.

I disagree,



The law, as written, DOES provide a loophole for any police officer to stop and detain anyone suspected of being an illegal, and it doesn't define what the suspicion has to be based on or the criteria for that basis. Therefore, it DOES (IMHO) allow for a policeman to stop someone on the street that fits a profile that they are looking for that makes that person a suspected illegal. I'm not saying it's a racial profile, just a profile.



I'm not jumping to a conclusion.



There are statutes in most states that forbid stop and identification actions by police except for detainable offenses. Put simply, one HAS to be a suspect of some crime or offense for a LEO to stop them and force them to provide identification. A person is not required by law to provide identification (or papers) for a consensual stop.



Until this Arizona law, a person would have to fit the description of a suspect, or have to be observed performing some infraction in order for it to be a detainable offense. Such has stood up in court as reasonable suspicion, and when stopped under such scenarios no rights are violated.



If being an illegal is a detainable offense (I have no problem with it being so), then by the old standard a LEO would have to have a description of someone who has shown to be an illegal (not a possible illegal, but an illegal) and then they could stop anyone that fits that description as a suspect. Or, a person could be stopped if they were observed performing some action that by definition makes them an illegal (for example, crossing a border illegally). In other words, the same criteria that a LEO would use for questioing a rape suspect (fits the discription of the rapist, observed performing activities of a rapist...such as breaking a window to gain entrance late at night, etc...which is a detainable offense), then all is good.



Do you think that LEOs will ONLY stop and detain illegal suspects that by their actions have show to be illegals, or that fit the description of known illegals? I don't.



I'm convinced that LEOs are good at stopping and detaing people that fit descriptions of lawbreakers, and at stopping people observed breaking laws. I'm just not comfortable they will do a good, 4th amendment protecting job of doing the same when the lawbreakers in questions are illegals.



I'm not convinced.



TJR

 

[Richard L]

TJR,

I'm not jumping to a conclusion.



There are statutes in most states that forbid stop and identification actions by police except for detainable offenses. Put simply, one HAS to be a suspect of some crime or offense for a LEO to stop them and force them to provide identification. A person is not required by law to provide identification (or papers) for a consensual stop.



Do you think that LEOs will ONLY stop and detain illegal suspects that by their actions have show to be illegals, or that fit the description of known illegals? I don't.

YES YOU ARE JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS!! AND YOUR STATEMENTS CLEARLY SHOW THAT YOU ARE MAKING THOSE ASSUMPTIONS,. AT THIS POINT, NOBODY HAS BEEN ARRESTED AND NOBDY HAS EVEN CLAIMED THAT THEY WERE STOPPED BY THE POLICE AS A SUSPECTED ILLEGAL ALIEN WITOUT PROBABLE CAUSE ...i SUSPECT THAT THE LAW IS NOT EVEN BEING ENFORCED YET, SO I CALL THAT JUMPING TO CONCLUSIONS



You are making the assumption that the police will be randomly stoping people and asking for ID's without probable cause, or a minumum questionalbe cause. That is not the case....If someone is stopped for any probable cause, the officer may suspect that the person may be an illegal alien, and he now has the right to arrest him.



Police are not going to run arround stopping every hispanic looking person checking ID.



You appear to want all the enforcement rules and causes for stopping someone to be written in as part of the law, but those details are not part of any law, and yet the courts can still recongnize when there is probable cause, and when there is not probable cause.



Nothing in Arizona has changed except the police have the power to arrest suspected illegal aliens. How and when they are allowed to ask for ID had not changed, and the rules of probable cause have not changed, and the people of Arizona have not lost any of their 4th Amendment rights! The Arizona Governor has decided that the INS is not doing their jobs and she has empowered the police in her state to do what the Federal Government and the INS are dragging their feet on doing.



If you want guarantees that no citizen will be stopped, or that they will never be any 4th Amendment abuses, THERE ARE NONE except that if someone's rights are violated it will be settled in court. Our country is based on laws, and you can only trust that in the end the system works. If that is not good enough for you, then there is no point in discussing this any further.



...Rich

 

[Jose Santana]

RichL stop fooling yourself,,,

If you want guarantees that no citizen will be stopped, or that they will never be any 4th Amendment abuses, THERE ARE NONE except that if someone's rights are violated it will be settled in court. Our country is based on laws, and you can only trust that in the end the system works. If that is not good enough for you, then there is no point in discussing this any further.

We can only trust that in the end the system works??? Is that your solution to the inevitiable flurry of crap about to bestowed upon people in the name of rooting out illegals? Again this works as long as it is not the White American being harrassed, sad to say but true. ... And that is what it comes down too. For anyone on here who says they don't mind being stopped, pulled over, searched, questioned or basically hasseled for anything, at anytime and at random I call you a liar..



joseymack

 

[Richard L]

joseymack,

We can only trust that in the end the system works??? Is that your solution to the inevitiable flurry of crap about to bestowed upon people in the name of rooting out illegals?

Yes, we are a nation of laws and that's how we deal with problems. Also by your "Inevitable flurry of crap about to bestowed upon people" clearly shows that you are aniticpating a huge police crack-down where everyone is going to be stopped for ID. That is just more doom and gloom propaganda.



If you read all the posts on this thread, you will see that the Arizona law has changed nothing except the police now have the authority to arrest/detain illegal aliens which they did not have authority to do previously. Only the INS along with US Customs and the Border Patrol had the authority to arrest suspected illegal aliens. Since the US Customs, and the US Border Patrol are only present in the areas around the borders, the INS is the only agency empowered arrest/detain illegal aliens.



Again, if you read all the posts in this thread you will see where my daughter was rear-ended by a Mexican national in Waco, Tx. This person did not have a drivers license or proof of insurance (required by Texas law). The office said he was sure the guy was an illegal alien but could not do anything except pass the info on to the INS. I'm sure the same thing was true in Arizona. Now that same scenereo in Arizona would allow that guy to be arrested by the police as an illegal alien and he could be turned over to the INS. I'm sure that is why Texas is interested in that same law.



I repeat: NOBODY'S RIGHT ARE BEING VIOLATED BECAUSE OF THIS NEW ARIZONA LAW. THE POLICE CAN NOW HAVE THE AUTHORITY TO ARREST/DETAIN SUSPECTED ILLEGAL ALIENS. POLICE HAVE NOT BEEN GIVEN THE AUTHORITY TO IGNORE OR VIOLATE ANYONE'S CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS OR 4TH AMENDMENT RIGHTS.



If you do not live in one of the state bordering on Mexico, you don't even understand what's going on down here. Of the estimated 12 million illegal aliens in the US, I would suspect that 8 million of them live in Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, and California. But because they are illegal, they don't get counted in the Census and they don't give valid information, for welfare nor pay for medical services, or schooling for their children.



This is not a racial issue...it is an economic issue that is bleeding the border states dry and the Federal Government is completely ignoring the problem they created. Finally, the Governor of Arizona has the balls to stand up and take a positive step towards getting at least some of the illegal aliens off of the streets in her state and the liberal press is crucifying her. Maybe she should pass a law that empowers the police to arrest journalist who make up lies to provoke racial tensions.



...Rich

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Richard L said:

You are making the assumption that the police will be randomly stoping people and asking for ID's without probable cause, or a minumum questionalbe cause. That is not the case....If someone is stopped for any probable cause, the officer may suspect that the person may be an illegal alien, and he now has the right to arrest him.

Respecfully, and there is no reason to SHOUT, the only one making assumptions here is you, Richard. I seem to be repeating myself and you are as well, so maybe we should let it go. But I would like to clarify a few things...maybe for the last time.



I never assumed that police will randomly stop people.



I simply stated that without defining what criteria makes for resonable suspicion, or what defines probable cause, then the law and its enforcement will be up whatever criteria LEOs decide. They may decide what a "suspected illegal" means to them; or they may have a department that defines that for all the officers within; but without case law, and without statutes (which we have for other detainable offenses) this NEW reason to stop someone will be up for interpretation, and open to scrutiny.

Police are not going to run arround stopping every hispanic looking person checking ID.

I never said they would.

You appear to want all the enforcement rules and causes for stopping someone to be written in as part of the law, but those details are not part of any law, and yet the courts can still recongnize when there is probable cause, and when there is not probable cause.

You are not completely accurate here. True; the definition of what is "cause" and "reasonable suspicion" are not part of most laws, but the reality is that there is a mountain of case law and tremendous amounts of statutes (did you even read the Wiki reference I first gave above?) that define what is, and what is not a detainable offense. The issue that I see is that we have absolutely no precident for "suspected illegal alien" as a detainable offense. There is none. Lots of case law for "suspected robber", and "suspected rapist", and "suspected killer"...but not for "suspected illegal." For all those others I mentioned, either a police officer observed the crime, or the person stopped fits the description of a person witnessed committing the crime.

Nothing in Arizona has changed except the police have the power to arrest suspected illegal aliens. How and when they are allowed to ask for ID had not changed, and the rules of probable cause have not changed, and the people of Arizona have not lost any of their 4th Amendment rights! The Arizona Governor has decided that the INS is not doing their jobs and she has empowered the police in her state to do what the Federal Government and the INS are dragging their feet on doing.

I agree with everything you say, except for the the "how and when..." part. It used to be in Arizona that for all detainable offenses you had to be a suspect, and the criteria was (as I said above) that you fit the description of the lawbreaker OR you were observed breaking the law. Is that the same criteria we will used for stopping and detaining suspected illegals? If you really think it is, and it actually ends up being that is the same criteria used for stop and identifications of illegals then I will be the first to eat crow. I simply doubt that the same criteria will be used.

If you want guarantees that no citizen will be stopped, or that they will never be any 4th Amendment abuses, THERE ARE NONE except that if someone's rights are violated it will be settled in court. Our country is based on laws, and you can only trust that in the end the system works. If that is not good enough for you, then there is no point in discussing this any further.

I'm not looking for guarantees, I'm just looking for the enforcement of this new law to not be arbitrary, and that what makes an "suspected illegal" the same criteria that makes a "suspected killer", etc. I've seen nothing so far that can convince me that it won't be an arbitrary set of criteria that define a suspected illegal.



Furthermore, I anticiate that once enacted, either LEO will be too scared of the legal ramifications to use it and therefore will only use it for the cases where they are already stopping someone for another offense. Likewise, it might only get used for the most clear-cut cases of seeing illegal aliens, of which I think there will be very few (they will hide; they will leave). Either way, the law may help to address Arizona's problems, but won't stem the tide of illegals...just move the problem around a bit.



The biggest thing to stem the tide of illegal immigrants to this country has been our recession. Everyone bitches about things when times are bad and then they tend to look for a scapegoat. Back when times were good and it was raining money, and illegals were as prevalent as ever it's funny how it wasn't as big an issue.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

RichardL also said to Josey:

If you read all the posts on this thread, you will see that the Arizona law has changed nothing except the police now have the authority to arrest/detain illegal aliens which they did not have authority to do previously.

That's simply not accurate.



The law also allows police to stop and detain "suspected illegal aliens." That new, defined ability without a definition of the criteria for suspicion and without statutes and case law related to illegal alien suspects (for which there exists for all other detain offense suspects), this law is "suspect" to enforced arbitrarily, and in ways that seem to violate the rights of those stopped.



Some say police can already stop anyone for anything. And, I agree, they can. But they can ONLY require someone to identify themselves IF they are a suspect, and for all other forms of suspects there is criteria and case law. For "suspected illegals", there is none.



So, to me, (and it seems to you, Richard), it seems LEO and our judicial system will have to "make this one up as it goes along", which, sorry, I'm just not comfortable with.



Like I said above; if police only use the "stop and identify" portion of this law to stop those that they observe being illegals (watched them illegally cross a border, for example), or those that fit the description of someone observed as an illegal, then I have ABSOLUTELY NO PROBLEM. But I'm skeptical.



TJR

 

[TrainTrac]

:cheeky:

[Broken External Image]:

[Broken External Image]:

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Funny TrainTrac.



Though the cartoon is a common ploy: Make those that voice an intelligent, disagreeing opinion look like idiots through some comparison with the absurd.



TJR

 

[Thomas Rogers]

The debate as to whether or not the Arizona bill is 'ready' and 'enforceable' is far from over.



From the article:

Arizona's legislation was passed in part with the lobbying muscle of the unions. An association of police chiefs tried to defeat or soften it.



Tucson police officer Martin Escobar also filed a lawsuit, arguing there's no "race-neutral" criteria for him to suspect that someone's in the country illegally. Some say it would be impossible to enforce without relying on indicators such as skin color, clothing and accent

Funny that an association of police chiefs, the same people that will need to show good guidance and direction in order to assure that this new law is enforced in a way that doesn't cause rights violations have also opposed it.



Some LEO are saying they can enforce the law based on actions observed; others are saying that's impossible and that race alone ends up being the criteria for enforcement.



So, who are we to believe?



Read the link below...