Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
3 million jobs are going to be lost within 3 mos
bend over and kiss your ass goodbye america.
bend over and kiss your ass goodbye america.
The big three are in the tank
- Thread starter Bill Barber
- Start date
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
If the big three really do go then all I can say is: "It's been a long time coming."
Evolve or die!
Remember:
There is nothing wrong with America that can't be fixed by what is right with America.
TJR
Bill Barber
Well-Known Member
SOOOOO TJR, what is right with america at this time?
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
What's great with America right now?
Lot's of things.
1. Great engineering and tech schools for those willing to work hard in high school and then go on to be an engineer (some are very reasonably priced, too, like Georgia Tech, for example).
2. Excellent opportunities for small business and entrepeneurs, especially in the service industry.
3. Smart, ambitious workers.
4. Great infrastructure (transportion, utilities, communications).
5. Ready access to top-notch healthcare.
6. Plenty of charitable and faith-based organizations willing and able to help those in need.
...
and on, and on...
TJR
Lot's of things.
1. Great engineering and tech schools for those willing to work hard in high school and then go on to be an engineer (some are very reasonably priced, too, like Georgia Tech, for example).
2. Excellent opportunities for small business and entrepeneurs, especially in the service industry.
3. Smart, ambitious workers.
4. Great infrastructure (transportion, utilities, communications).
5. Ready access to top-notch healthcare.
6. Plenty of charitable and faith-based organizations willing and able to help those in need.
...
and on, and on...
TJR
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
TJR,
I don't want to be negative, but your list has some flaws.
1. Great engineering and tech schools for those willing to work hard in high school and then go on to be an engineer (some are very reasonably priced, too, like Georgia Tech, for example).
-- A huge number of these Engineering students are foreign and will take those skills back to their home countries to build their economies. Many of these students come to America to study, not because the schools here are better, but because they weren't good enough to meet the high standards in their own countries. Here in America the standards for entry are so low, you just have to be able to afford the tuition for acceptance. My ex-fiancee is an Engineer. There are over 200 engineers in her organization and over 100 were foreign born -- mostly from Asia.
2. Excellent opportunities for small business and entrepeneurs, especially in the service industry.
-- Many of those service industry jobs are low-paying, and many of the workers are illegal. My brother's small business is struggling due to the poor economy. For the first time I remember, he won't be on a cruise this Thanksgiving. He is cutting back on workers to compensate for the slower business.
3. Smart, ambitious workers.
-- The developing nations have caught or surpassed us. For instance, nearly every friend I have in Poland has a Masters degree. The same was true in Portugal. If you don't have a degree here, you work in some shop as a cashier or clean the streets
4. Great infrastructure (transportion, utilities, communications).
-- Well, it is better than here, but the roads and bridges are crumbling, and most cities barely even have a mass transit system.
5. Ready access to top-notch healthcare.
-- True, if you can afford it
6. Plenty of charitable and faith-based organizations willing and able to help those in need.
-- Yes, we are the most charitable nation in the World.
I don't want to be negative, but your list has some flaws.
1. Great engineering and tech schools for those willing to work hard in high school and then go on to be an engineer (some are very reasonably priced, too, like Georgia Tech, for example).
-- A huge number of these Engineering students are foreign and will take those skills back to their home countries to build their economies. Many of these students come to America to study, not because the schools here are better, but because they weren't good enough to meet the high standards in their own countries. Here in America the standards for entry are so low, you just have to be able to afford the tuition for acceptance. My ex-fiancee is an Engineer. There are over 200 engineers in her organization and over 100 were foreign born -- mostly from Asia.
2. Excellent opportunities for small business and entrepeneurs, especially in the service industry.
-- Many of those service industry jobs are low-paying, and many of the workers are illegal. My brother's small business is struggling due to the poor economy. For the first time I remember, he won't be on a cruise this Thanksgiving. He is cutting back on workers to compensate for the slower business.
3. Smart, ambitious workers.
-- The developing nations have caught or surpassed us. For instance, nearly every friend I have in Poland has a Masters degree. The same was true in Portugal. If you don't have a degree here, you work in some shop as a cashier or clean the streets
4. Great infrastructure (transportion, utilities, communications).
-- Well, it is better than here, but the roads and bridges are crumbling, and most cities barely even have a mass transit system.
5. Ready access to top-notch healthcare.
-- True, if you can afford it
6. Plenty of charitable and faith-based organizations willing and able to help those in need.
-- Yes, we are the most charitable nation in the World.
EddieS'04
In Memoriam 1950-2022
TJR, those wont exist for long. This nation built itself on the oil and the auto. There is too much bussiness structured around it. No one will havethe $$ for anything. The high tech will continue to go overseas to developing countries. Most of the youth in this country dont care to advance or educate themselves. The ones that do wont be enough. We will see a domino effect, that no president can help. Our congress has become too selve serving and stuck to fix anything. Except take away more state and local rights. We wont need them.
20 yrs from now we will begin to be a 3rd world nation. With a mediocore form of socialism. Supported by the auristicats.
Those living under bridges in cardboard have head start on some of us...
soup lines, work camps. Those that have decent jobs will never own what they have. What little of middle class is left. will live in 500 to 900 sqft Government housing. Forget that 2000sqft house, that was to big for your family anyway. The rest, in the work and labor camps, live in sheds and owe the company store every paycheck. Like cambells soup factories and mining towns all over again.
Radical muslims are not the only ones waiting for us to crash. There are plenty others that are not going to help us as we have them. Except they will finnish buying up our farm land.
Maybe I sound too pesimistic but IMO we are already broken. The can do attitude of early last century is a pipe dream. Most of this countries $$, will have to be military, just to stay soveriegn.
20 yrs from now we will begin to be a 3rd world nation. With a mediocore form of socialism. Supported by the auristicats.
Those living under bridges in cardboard have head start on some of us...
soup lines, work camps. Those that have decent jobs will never own what they have. What little of middle class is left. will live in 500 to 900 sqft Government housing. Forget that 2000sqft house, that was to big for your family anyway. The rest, in the work and labor camps, live in sheds and owe the company store every paycheck. Like cambells soup factories and mining towns all over again.
Radical muslims are not the only ones waiting for us to crash. There are plenty others that are not going to help us as we have them. Except they will finnish buying up our farm land.
Maybe I sound too pesimistic but IMO we are already broken. The can do attitude of early last century is a pipe dream. Most of this countries $$, will have to be military, just to stay soveriegn.
FlipTrac_511
Well-Known Member
Scary stuff about GM. They cancelled out on events for the November L.A. autoshow here. Serious penny-pinching for the largest automaker in the world (or is it Toyota now?).
Bud Williams
Well-Known Member
Once they get their bailout, they'll be partying like AIG!:lol:
Dan Chatten
Active Member
If the american auto industry would have evolved with the times, like Honda, Toyota, and others, then there is no doubt in my mind that they would be on top. The got FAT and HAPPY. Additionally, the quality of an "American" made car was suspect from the day you picked it up. And, the only piece of mind you got was when you added another x$'s to your payment with an ESP. I have never owned an american car where there were 1 or 2 major issues in the first 50K - tranny, head-gasket, on and on.
Why don't I feel that way with my Honda, Toyota or Volvo ? Maybe because I don't have to. My volvo went close to 300k miles with NO major issues. My daughters Accord, 180K, no issues.
Our last vehicle purchase was a Honda Pilot, and our goal/savings is to buy another new car in 2010 to replace the ST (keeping it as a 3rd), and I am already thinking Honda or Toyota. Well, the way things are going they may be the only choice anyhow
scott degroot
Well-Known Member
Wow....aren't we just the life of the party
Les
Well-Known Member
I have never owned an American car with any of these issues. Granted, the cars of the 80s were pure junk (hand made), however today, cars are built with robotics and most American cars work very well. Back in the day, a car over 5 years old or 50,000 miles was considered junk, today, most manufacturers produce cars that will last well over 100,000 miles. The biggest problem with American manufacturers is their inability to look into the future and evolve.
By the way, the only major problem I ever had with any car was a Toyota, although this was back in the 70s.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
You guys can pooh-pooh my list all you want, but as the song goes...
Today, like always, for those willing to work, a very, very good life can be had. I think the problem is that we have a very different idea today as to what "the good life" is.
I feel that a major part of people's discontentment with America today is due to a very unrealistic set of hopes, dreams and expectations. For prosperity has become an entitlement.
I overheard someone at my kids swim meet the other day talking about the fall of the big three.
He said:
He makes a good point. We complain about the shrinking middle class, but I say that is the middle class upward mobility (not so much the downward trend) that is the cause for that. They are "moving on up", and at a certain point, something's got to give. We are seeing that "start to give" now.
TJR
Today, like always, for those willing to work, a very, very good life can be had. I think the problem is that we have a very different idea today as to what "the good life" is.
I feel that a major part of people's discontentment with America today is due to a very unrealistic set of hopes, dreams and expectations. For prosperity has become an entitlement.
I overheard someone at my kids swim meet the other day talking about the fall of the big three.
He said:
He makes a good point. We complain about the shrinking middle class, but I say that is the middle class upward mobility (not so much the downward trend) that is the cause for that. They are "moving on up", and at a certain point, something's got to give. We are seeing that "start to give" now.
TJR
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Those same people are dreaming about the day they can buy a car made in Afghanistan, Iraq, and any other of the "Bad guys of today".
Tom
buzz worth
Active Member
oh boy...........it all really won't matter anyway. According to "the prophecies" the end is coming in 2012 anyway.
Must be true, I saw it on The History Channel.
ss
Must be true, I saw it on The History Channel.
ss
Les
Well-Known Member
I see some of us are still living in the distant past. However, you are not considering how many people got up this morning, IN THIS COUNTRY, and went to work at a Toyota or Nissan plant producing cars purchased in this country. And you are not considering how many things YOU purchase everyday NOT produced in this country. This is a world-wide ecomonic problem, not just here. Hell, even my Harley has a Toyota starter...
What you are about to see is the auto industry go the way of the airline industry in this country. The airlines that no longer exist can thank unyielding labor contracts forced by the unions. Not saying in the past the union didn't do right for those people, but as previously said, $40 an hour to install some trim does seem rather high to me.
Mark K 2
Well-Known Member
Sh!tcan the retirees' pensions. Those pensions are nothing but a drain on the systems.
Very true. How about this. How many people IN THIS COUNTRY will not be getting up and going to work because of Toyota, Honda, etc?
Do you have any clue how much it costs your employer to employ you? That cost not only includes the hourly rate, but also benefits, and SS tax's. Did you take that into consideration or do you think thier hourly rate is $40.00/hr?
Tom
Les
Well-Known Member
Yeah, Tom, I know, owned a business for 25 years.
No one, people getting up and NOT going to work is not the fault of Honda and Toyota, it is the fault of GM, Ford and Chrysler due to their inability to evolve and the product they have produced in the past. You seem to think justs because it is produced here, I should buy it. There is nothing (probably) entirely produced in this country and the American automakers are just as guilty for using foreign parts as any other industry.
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Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
You want the economy to turn around?
- Flat or Fair tax.
- Get goberment out of the way
- Loser Pays
Plain and simple. Everyone pays the same percentage to live in this great country (not the same amount, the same percentage... BIG difference).
Get the burdensome, unnecessary regulations out of the way.
If you sue and lose, you pay the expenses of all parties involved. Let's see Joe Blow sue GM because in 20 years his SUV might have killed (1) wild salmon.... How much of the cost of everything we buy has a lawyer cost built into them? Yes, there are legitimate cases of product laibility, but come on, suing Victoria's Secret becuase you got a rash? Sueing McDonalds because you spill HOT coffee on your naughty bits?
You want to see the economy completely crumble? Watch what happens if the Democrats decide to move forward with the 401(k) confiscation that they are currently bantering about.
Unions are the least of my concern right now, unless we start talking about Card Check, then, we will have a problem.
Let's start using our buying power. If a country like Japan places a tarriff on US automobiles, we do the same. If Brazil starts taxing wood products, we tax their imports. It's not about economics, it's about equity.
We're not going to be able to compete in the worldwide manufacturing process if our costs to sell in some other country are 40x more than a domestic product. Yes, Unions contribute to that cost, but government contributes much more in the form of regulation, tax and oversight.
There are numerous things right with this country. We are still the shining city on the hill. There are not many other countries that redily hand over power to the opposing side with a smile, a handshake, a "congradulations, Mr. President" and not a single shot fired. Agree or disagree, doesn't matter.
We have freedoms in this country that 95% of all other countries in the world do not, at least we have them for now. Generally speaking, any Joe Blow can start a business, run in a political campaign, get on TV, write a book, invent a new dohicky, drive/fly/walk wherever they want to go, buy just about anything they want, put their money in just about anything they want, etc.
Bill Clinton was president for 8 years.
George W. Bush was president for 8 years.
Barack Hussain Obama will be president for 4 or 8 years.
Republicans controlled congress for 10 years.
Democrats have controlled congress for 2 and counting.
This country has existed for 232 years (at least been free from British Rule).
This season will pass. Businesses will continue to be created, grown, strive, fail, make money, lose money, whatever.
The infrastructure is as it is because it has not been a priority of LOCAL government (county/state). They have been too busy with things like.... Medicare.... Entitlements.... Giveaways.... Embezzlement.... Poor Accounting.... you name it.
- Flat or Fair tax.
- Get goberment out of the way
- Loser Pays
Plain and simple. Everyone pays the same percentage to live in this great country (not the same amount, the same percentage... BIG difference).
Get the burdensome, unnecessary regulations out of the way.
If you sue and lose, you pay the expenses of all parties involved. Let's see Joe Blow sue GM because in 20 years his SUV might have killed (1) wild salmon.... How much of the cost of everything we buy has a lawyer cost built into them? Yes, there are legitimate cases of product laibility, but come on, suing Victoria's Secret becuase you got a rash? Sueing McDonalds because you spill HOT coffee on your naughty bits?
You want to see the economy completely crumble? Watch what happens if the Democrats decide to move forward with the 401(k) confiscation that they are currently bantering about.
Unions are the least of my concern right now, unless we start talking about Card Check, then, we will have a problem.
Let's start using our buying power. If a country like Japan places a tarriff on US automobiles, we do the same. If Brazil starts taxing wood products, we tax their imports. It's not about economics, it's about equity.
We're not going to be able to compete in the worldwide manufacturing process if our costs to sell in some other country are 40x more than a domestic product. Yes, Unions contribute to that cost, but government contributes much more in the form of regulation, tax and oversight.
There are numerous things right with this country. We are still the shining city on the hill. There are not many other countries that redily hand over power to the opposing side with a smile, a handshake, a "congradulations, Mr. President" and not a single shot fired. Agree or disagree, doesn't matter.
We have freedoms in this country that 95% of all other countries in the world do not, at least we have them for now. Generally speaking, any Joe Blow can start a business, run in a political campaign, get on TV, write a book, invent a new dohicky, drive/fly/walk wherever they want to go, buy just about anything they want, put their money in just about anything they want, etc.
Bill Clinton was president for 8 years.
George W. Bush was president for 8 years.
Barack Hussain Obama will be president for 4 or 8 years.
Republicans controlled congress for 10 years.
Democrats have controlled congress for 2 and counting.
This country has existed for 232 years (at least been free from British Rule).
This season will pass. Businesses will continue to be created, grown, strive, fail, make money, lose money, whatever.
The infrastructure is as it is because it has not been a priority of LOCAL government (county/state). They have been too busy with things like.... Medicare.... Entitlements.... Giveaways.... Embezzlement.... Poor Accounting.... you name it.
user 62394
Active Member
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I work in the auto industry, and yeah, things are rough right now. I am fortunate because my company not only sells a large percentage of their parts to Honda, Toyota, & Nissan, but we have more parts on small cars than we do trucks. (For the record, any part we sell to the Japanese goes to a plant where the car is built in the US or Canada. We do not export overseas) So the impact of the downturn has not hit my company as hard - but I have many friends at former employers who may not be working next week.
In the last 12 years, I have worked on projects for GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, & Mazda (never worked with Chrysler). I can tell you for a fact that these companies operate very differently. Honda & Toyota -- from an engineering standpoint at least - run much more efficiently (with fewer people) and make decisions based on more than just cost. I really feel this is why they are kicking ass.
At GM or Ford, any decision has to travel up several tiers of managers before a decision is made, and then 99% of the time, it is purely based on cost. I started working with Japanese automakers about 5 years ago, and was amazed at the difference. At Honda & Toyota, the engineers I work with every day and their direct managers are the ones making decisions, not some purchasing director who has had no involvement or knowledge in what we are working on. Those decisions are a balance of cost, weight, performance, and quality.
Personally, I think it would be good for the industry in the long run to see some mergers, etc. It will suck hard in the short term (and there is potential that I could be one of those who could lose their jobs, because while my company is doing OK, the companies that own us are not), but in the end, the industry would be stronger.
My two cents
Rocks
In the last 12 years, I have worked on projects for GM, Ford, Toyota, Honda, Nissan, Mitsubishi, Subaru, & Mazda (never worked with Chrysler). I can tell you for a fact that these companies operate very differently. Honda & Toyota -- from an engineering standpoint at least - run much more efficiently (with fewer people) and make decisions based on more than just cost. I really feel this is why they are kicking ass.
At GM or Ford, any decision has to travel up several tiers of managers before a decision is made, and then 99% of the time, it is purely based on cost. I started working with Japanese automakers about 5 years ago, and was amazed at the difference. At Honda & Toyota, the engineers I work with every day and their direct managers are the ones making decisions, not some purchasing director who has had no involvement or knowledge in what we are working on. Those decisions are a balance of cost, weight, performance, and quality.
Personally, I think it would be good for the industry in the long run to see some mergers, etc. It will suck hard in the short term (and there is potential that I could be one of those who could lose their jobs, because while my company is doing OK, the companies that own us are not), but in the end, the industry would be stronger.
My two cents
Rocks
