Another Very Sad Day for the USA

[H D]

Caymen,



You keep saying it can't be done by adding ways in which it can be done and stating that those means are indications of not really "making it." If the end result is living off of $12/hr and you can keep coming up with ways that make it possible, you cannot keep claiming that it is impossible, even if those circumstances are distasteful to you.

 

[Tom Schindler]

You keep saying it can't be done by adding ways in which it can be done and stating that those means are indications of not really "making it." If the end result is living off of $12/hr and you can keep coming up with ways that make it possible, you cannot keep claiming that it is impossible, even if those circumstances are distasteful to you.

High,



I would tend to believe "making it" to the average person is the following.



1, Living on your own in an apartment or home.

2, Some mode of transportation, preferably a decent reliable vehicle.

3, Average health benefits.

4, Minimum coverage on vehicle and home.

5, Allowable food and clothing per month budget.

6, Other expenses such as a phone (though not required), electric, gas, water & sewer, etc.



If you are living with a room mate or a couple of guys, you are not technically "on your own". If you live in an average city in the USA, the public transportation system is poor, at best and living in an area with "everything within a short walking distance" is going to be rare. Having health coverage that only covers you with "incase something really bad happens with you" is like not having insurance. Driving a rust bucket that starts sometimes isn't having a vehicle. Not having insurance on your property in case of theft or fire (legal) and driving a vehicle without insurance is dangerous and in most, if not all, states is illegal. Only including food and no clothing budget isn't really that fair.



I made it on $7.00/hr by living with my mom and dad, eating their food, using the family washer and dryer, for my laundry, and only paying for my vehicle, insurance, and gasoline. While I was getting by, I was not "making it". If it weren't for my parents home, rent free, I would have been on the street.



So, I still stand behind my statement. It isn't going to happen. If I shared some of my expenses with another person, then I could make it, but I am not technically "on my own".





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Caymen, that post above is all good, and with the details you have added makes me understand what you probably should have said. It also shows why general claims that speak in the most abstract of terms can often not be backed up.



Your original statement was simply too vague, IMHO. You originally said:

there is no way ANYONE could live off $12/hr WHILE paying for health coverage and saving for retirement.

That original statement only listed three circumstances: Make $12/hr (referred to as "that pay), must pay for medical insurance, and save for retirement.



That was it. However, along the way, you added "making it", and began to define what that meant to you. Once you quantify and qualify in that way, then your abstract, generalization is now specific and can be more directly validated (or invalidated). However, that then becomes an entirely different claim and statement. You can't really "stand by your original claim", because it is no longer the same claim. It has morphed, probably towards what you meant to say or should have said, to be fair. Regardless, it is no longer the same statement.



You have gone on to say what you mean by "live", and "making it", and those qualified your original statement. When you do that, you take something that is totally abstract and subjective and give it specific meaning. Then, once that specific meaning and circumstances are added, then YES, I can agree that for THOSE circumstances $12/hr won't be enough.



Regardless, back to your original, unqaulified statement. There are definitions of living, and there are standards of living, in which $12/hr would be enough to meet the two criterias you submitted. You just don't seem to agree that those standards and conditions are what you meant in your abstract statement. However, since you never qualified in the first place, your original statement is (arguably) easily proven false.



The morale of the story: Say what you mean, mean what you say, and use a qualifier or two to make it clear to the reader that there is more going into your statement than you are presenting.



A simple restating as follows goes a long way:

I believe there is no way ANYONE could live off $12/hr WHILE paying for health coverage and saving for retirement and live on their own, living what most would agree is a reasonable lifestyle.

Just a modest restatement like the above will engage the reader. The reader will instantly recognize this to be an opinion, not something presented as fact. We love to be presented facts that we can assess the validity of and embrace or challenge. We don't do that so much with opinions. Second, it introduces the term "reasonable lifestyle", which the reader may take as an opportunity to ask "what do you think a reasonable lifestyle is?". Then it becomes a constructive dialogue, not an offensive/defensive debate.



Presenting vaguely defined opinions as black and white facts will almost always start a pi$$ing contest online, or even face-to-face.



TJR

 

[H D]

I would tend to believe "making it" to the average person is the following.

I don't want to be average. My idea of the average person is the sea of debt and weeks away from financial destruction that seems to be, well, average. Did the unions prevent that for any of the employees that lost their jobs?



I was "making it" on my own, using your exact definition since I did have all those things, making $11.65/hr part time.



I am making it now, even though as you correctly pointed out, not alone, but we're still operating under $30k as a couple. We pay cash for all those things you mention and still have some left over blow money, usually about $100 a month to do whatever we please with. And that is $100 that goes to whatever category we have already allotted money to, which does include food, clothing, entertainment, etc. And we're still putting somewhere between $500-$1000/month toward debt. A few months of savings is already taken care of.



And the best news, I just had an interview this morning. The job is mine if I take it. It pays much, much, much better. Well beyond double, we'll say. That is IF I take it, though. The overall income isn't as important as my main short term goals right now which are a successful first year of marriage, finish graduate school, pay down debt. The money will come. I have to make some tough decisions.



Good news is, its NOT UNION!:bwahaha::cheeky: