Bill E stated it on the nose. What I hate is the media trying to push the blame to the controller turning his back and he being the only one in the tower when there should have been two. Most of the non flying public will not understand that the guy flying the plane in the cockpit is the one with the ultimate responsibility and not the folks in the tower.
ComAir 191 Down in Lexington, KY
- Thread starter Nelson Atwell
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Right, Curtis, others, the ultimate responsibility falls on the pilot. I was just stating what the news media is fixated on. I even said in my first post it its the pilots responsibility to check their heading.
Bill Ellis
Well-Known Member
Even with two people in the tower it does not assure that one of them watches every takeoff.
Kevin Palmer
Well-Known Member
Unfortunately, this does come down to compiled human error.
I agree that the Pilot and F.O. (First Officer) should have caught the heading and the un-lit runway issue. This in combination that the tower control individual did not maintain a watch to ensure where the aircraft was, or was heading simply added to the fire so to speak.
Any one of the three persons, Pilot, F.O. or tower control, could have or should have been able to catch this before the potential of devastation. However, we know the end result. All we can do is learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. It is one of the most effective ways there is to learn.
Sometimes it comes at a great cost. 49 people dieing in a plane crash is actually pretty low by comparisons to past crashes. That said, I doubt seriously you could ever explain that to anyone that had family on the plane in question.
In most cases, unless it is a big event, (hundreds of people dieing for example), then it is not an event most of us will even follow. That all changes when you have a connection to it. Even if a single person were to perish, it is huge when it is your mother, father, brother, aunt, etc etc...
The fact is it did happen. All we can do is learn from this and correct what ever needs to be corrected to prevent the same occurrence in the future.
For example, having a runway labeled 26 and 22 where they can easily be gotten to from each other. Why not rename them to 22 and 18 or something like that.
I can hear the conversation now, "Did he say 26,,, I thought he said 22,,,, must have, here is 22 now, must be the correct one,,,"
I agree that the Pilot and F.O. (First Officer) should have caught the heading and the un-lit runway issue. This in combination that the tower control individual did not maintain a watch to ensure where the aircraft was, or was heading simply added to the fire so to speak.
Any one of the three persons, Pilot, F.O. or tower control, could have or should have been able to catch this before the potential of devastation. However, we know the end result. All we can do is learn from our mistakes and the mistakes of others. It is one of the most effective ways there is to learn.
Sometimes it comes at a great cost. 49 people dieing in a plane crash is actually pretty low by comparisons to past crashes. That said, I doubt seriously you could ever explain that to anyone that had family on the plane in question.
In most cases, unless it is a big event, (hundreds of people dieing for example), then it is not an event most of us will even follow. That all changes when you have a connection to it. Even if a single person were to perish, it is huge when it is your mother, father, brother, aunt, etc etc...
The fact is it did happen. All we can do is learn from this and correct what ever needs to be corrected to prevent the same occurrence in the future.
For example, having a runway labeled 26 and 22 where they can easily be gotten to from each other. Why not rename them to 22 and 18 or something like that.
I can hear the conversation now, "Did he say 26,,, I thought he said 22,,,, must have, here is 22 now, must be the correct one,,,"
Bill Ellis
Well-Known Member
Runways are not arbitrarily numbered. The runway number is it's heading rounded to the nearest 10 degrees then the last zero is truncated. So a runway pointing at 127 compass degrees would be labeled as runway 13 [130 is nearest to 127]. That same runway, going in the opposite direction would be labeled 31 [13+18].
How does ground control clear an aircraft to taxi to a particular runway and not catch that they did not go there, and then tower clears them to takeoff on a runway when they are not in the hold short for that runway and the aircrew not realize they are at the wrong runway? That is almost too many errors to believe. There has to be more to the story. Ultimately it's the pilot's job, period. But it took a series of errors and lapses for that to occur.
Kevin Palmer
Well-Known Member
Bill, your correct about the system and numbering, I am just saying it may be something worth looking at. To have the numbers so similar more than likely in this case, was a contributing factor?????
PRM, think about all of the ground incurrions that have occured becuase the PIC did not follow the taxi instructions correctly. It's not the ground controller's responsibility to ensure the PIC follows his instructions. If there is any confusion, the PIC needs to ask for clarification. Also, the tower could have cleared him for takeoff just prior to him reaching the hold short for rwy 22 or while he was crossing rwy 26.
Agree wholehardedly that the PIC is the one responsible. But you usually switch to tower freq as you approach the hold short of the intended takeoff runway. If he is switching early or stopping at the hold short for another rwy the ground controller would usually at least ask what's going on. And for tower to clear someone for takeoff on one rwy when at the hold short for another rwy is absolutely wrong.
It's possible that the tower didn't visually verify the A/C was holding short of 22 when the PIC called requesting a clearance to depart on 22. Not sure you can say that the tower was wrong for that. He cleared him to takeoff on 22. The PIC didn't follow his instructions if he took rwy 26 and departed.
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
As is stated in the post I previously made above, which included an excerpt of an interview with my uncle who flies out of this airport on an almost daily basis, the recent construction has changed the way the taxiways are routed. In the interview, my uncle stated that even he, a person that instructs students and flys there frequently, was confused about how the taxiways layout had been changed. My uncle is a former US Air Force pilot with over 40 years experience flying. There are probably only a handful of people that fly out of that airport more than my uncle. If he was confused, then someone less familiar with the airport would have ar ough time.
Folks, This is a very sad situation. Tragic. Accidents happen all the time big and small planes. Many including this are related to human factors. I won't get into to much unless there are pointed questions, however I know this airport, I know the aircraft, and I do know the pilot's involved. I know the company training, and procedures. I can assure you that when it is raining and at night at Lex and pretty much any airport out there, it is very difficult to see where you are going. Vigilance pays. This is a very short taxi and there is alot for the FO to do, so I am sure his attention was elsewhere. Like I said I know this First Officer, and he IS an excellent pilot. There would be no hesitation for him to tell the Captain he was going the wrong way. It happens all the time we AREN'T perfect. These two professionals would have NEVER taken a chance to use this runway on purpose. The tower controller was most likely giving clearance to another aircraft, and to do that they most likely had his back to the runway, because Comair has been flying in there since 1977. They are professionals in this airport, so he was confident. Everything lined up perfectly that day. It truly breaks my heart to see this happen. For the families of the deceased, for the FO, for the profession in general. I can assure you as a PIC, nothing we do is to place our passengers in harms way. This was a horrible mistake, changes will be made as with all other airline crashes. Changes that will make your next flight safer then the last. It is an unfortunate industry, and terribly unforgiving, but this is how progress is made, to assure that this will never happen again. As a pilot, and a friend of these two pilot's I send my sincere regards to anyone on this site that may have been effected by this horrible accident.......
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
b, sorry for your loss. This is a terrible tragedy. The article at the link below gives additional details. It really seems that many factors contributed to this, and like you said, a few changes have already been implemented to ensure safer operations at this airport and others.
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
Having worked in the airline industry in the past, I feel for all those involved.
The one I feel the most for is the surviving FO. To always know that while you were not PIC, but Second in Charge, to have so many people die because of a series of errors, any one could have been prevented, that's going to be a difficult pill to swallow - along with recovering from all the injusries suffered.
God Bless all souls on board.
The one I feel the most for is the surviving FO. To always know that while you were not PIC, but Second in Charge, to have so many people die because of a series of errors, any one could have been prevented, that's going to be a difficult pill to swallow - along with recovering from all the injusries suffered.
God Bless all souls on board.
I cannot vouch for the authenticity, so take it for what it may, or may not, be worth:
I live in Lexington and have thirty years of airline experience flying in
and out of LEX. I was also the station liason for Lexington for
ten years.
Here is what I think happened:
The two runways in question share the same common run-up area. The extented taxiway to the correct runway, runway 28 was closed due to construction. It has always been difficult to tell between the two runways when you are taxiing out. The natural thing to do is to take the wrong one. It is just there and you are always tempted to take it. When I flew out of LEX we always checked each other at least three times to make sure we were taking the correct runway. We checked the chart, we checked to make sure the correct runway number was at the end and we always double checked the FMS generated moving map.
Most FMS systems will have a warning called "runway dissimularity" pop up in magenta when your position at takeoff doesn't match the runway you programmed into the computer. This would not happen at LEX since you are virtually in the same spot when you take either runway.
It was also raining at the time of takeoff and dark. The control tower opens at 6am (because we are, after all, all about saving money) and only has one controller on duty at that time. He or she has to: run ground control, clearance delivery, approach control and departure control. The one controller also has to program the ATIS and make the coffee. He or she probably cleared comair to take off and then put their head back down to do a chore or work another airplane.
Taking the runway, the comair guy would put the power up and wouldn't realize they were on the wrone runway until they were about 70% down the pike. Too late to safely abort so he probaby decided to try and continue the takeoff.
This is when the eye witnesses heard a series of explosions and though the plane blew up in the air. Didn't happen -- what they heard and saw were compressor stalls of probably both engines. The pilot no doubt pushed the throttles all the way up and that demand to the engines combined with the steep pitch attitude cut off enough air to the intakes to cause the compressor stalls -- which, by the way, made them even more doomed. Less power.
They stalled or simply hit one of the large hills to the west of the airport and came to a stop. Everybody on board was probably injured but alive. Then, a second or two later the post-crash fire began. With the darkness and the fact that most of them had broken legs, pelvises and backs they literally burned alive. Not smoke inhalation. They really actually burned to death.
In my role as station liason I wrote most of the post crash safety procedure for Delta at that field. Too bad there weren't enough survivors to use them.
BTW, comair and the press will tell you what a great plane the RJ is. This is a total lie. The Canadair RJ was designed to be an executive barge, not an airliner. They were designed to fly about ten times a month, not ten times a day. They have a long history of mechanical design shortfalls. I've flown on it and have piloted it. It is a steaming, underpowered piece of shit. It ever had enough power to get out of its own way and this situation is exactly what everybody who flies it was afraid of.
The senior member of the crew had about five and a half years of total jet experience. The copilot less. They had minimum training (to save money -- enjoy that discount ticket!) and were flying a minimally equipped pos on very short rest. The layover gets in about 10pm the night before. They report for pick-up at 4:30am.
I'm sorry if I sound bitter but this is exactly the direction the entire airline industry is going. Expect to see bigger more colorful crashes in the future. email me if you need an off the record so-called expert. I have 20,000 of h
I live in Lexington and have thirty years of airline experience flying in
and out of LEX. I was also the station liason for Lexington for
ten years.
Here is what I think happened:
The two runways in question share the same common run-up area. The extented taxiway to the correct runway, runway 28 was closed due to construction. It has always been difficult to tell between the two runways when you are taxiing out. The natural thing to do is to take the wrong one. It is just there and you are always tempted to take it. When I flew out of LEX we always checked each other at least three times to make sure we were taking the correct runway. We checked the chart, we checked to make sure the correct runway number was at the end and we always double checked the FMS generated moving map.
Most FMS systems will have a warning called "runway dissimularity" pop up in magenta when your position at takeoff doesn't match the runway you programmed into the computer. This would not happen at LEX since you are virtually in the same spot when you take either runway.
It was also raining at the time of takeoff and dark. The control tower opens at 6am (because we are, after all, all about saving money) and only has one controller on duty at that time. He or she has to: run ground control, clearance delivery, approach control and departure control. The one controller also has to program the ATIS and make the coffee. He or she probably cleared comair to take off and then put their head back down to do a chore or work another airplane.
Taking the runway, the comair guy would put the power up and wouldn't realize they were on the wrone runway until they were about 70% down the pike. Too late to safely abort so he probaby decided to try and continue the takeoff.
This is when the eye witnesses heard a series of explosions and though the plane blew up in the air. Didn't happen -- what they heard and saw were compressor stalls of probably both engines. The pilot no doubt pushed the throttles all the way up and that demand to the engines combined with the steep pitch attitude cut off enough air to the intakes to cause the compressor stalls -- which, by the way, made them even more doomed. Less power.
They stalled or simply hit one of the large hills to the west of the airport and came to a stop. Everybody on board was probably injured but alive. Then, a second or two later the post-crash fire began. With the darkness and the fact that most of them had broken legs, pelvises and backs they literally burned alive. Not smoke inhalation. They really actually burned to death.
In my role as station liason I wrote most of the post crash safety procedure for Delta at that field. Too bad there weren't enough survivors to use them.
BTW, comair and the press will tell you what a great plane the RJ is. This is a total lie. The Canadair RJ was designed to be an executive barge, not an airliner. They were designed to fly about ten times a month, not ten times a day. They have a long history of mechanical design shortfalls. I've flown on it and have piloted it. It is a steaming, underpowered piece of shit. It ever had enough power to get out of its own way and this situation is exactly what everybody who flies it was afraid of.
The senior member of the crew had about five and a half years of total jet experience. The copilot less. They had minimum training (to save money -- enjoy that discount ticket!) and were flying a minimally equipped pos on very short rest. The layover gets in about 10pm the night before. They report for pick-up at 4:30am.
I'm sorry if I sound bitter but this is exactly the direction the entire airline industry is going. Expect to see bigger more colorful crashes in the future. email me if you need an off the record so-called expert. I have 20,000 of h
Last edited by a moderator:
Kevin Palmer
Well-Known Member
R Shek,
I have thought that out as well. I hope he survives and comes through it ok.
However, once he does so, he will have a very heavy burden on his shoulders. It does not matter who is in charge, anyone of the three main parts, (tower, PIC or FO) had/have the ability to call a safe guard situation. For whatever reason, they all missed it or all believed they were all correct. The reason does not matter, the FO will have to live with this for the rest of his life.
That is a heavy load to carry...
And, as far as how the passengers died. As I understand it, it was pretty nasty. In most cases, when a plane crashes and you survive the crash, you will die of suffocation. The fire happened so fast and furious, (full load of fuel, first flight of the day), that most of them did burn to death. I can not even imagine how terrible of a death that must be. The airline has requested dental records of everyone on board due to the severity of the damage done to the victums...
I can only hope, that every last one of them was knocked out and had no feeling at the time of their death.
49 is a low figure when it comes to plane crashes. But everyone of them had family who don't really care about the numbers game. All they know is the loss they have suffered and that it could have been prevented in one way or another.
I have thought that out as well. I hope he survives and comes through it ok.
However, once he does so, he will have a very heavy burden on his shoulders. It does not matter who is in charge, anyone of the three main parts, (tower, PIC or FO) had/have the ability to call a safe guard situation. For whatever reason, they all missed it or all believed they were all correct. The reason does not matter, the FO will have to live with this for the rest of his life.
That is a heavy load to carry...
And, as far as how the passengers died. As I understand it, it was pretty nasty. In most cases, when a plane crashes and you survive the crash, you will die of suffocation. The fire happened so fast and furious, (full load of fuel, first flight of the day), that most of them did burn to death. I can not even imagine how terrible of a death that must be. The airline has requested dental records of everyone on board due to the severity of the damage done to the victums...
I can only hope, that every last one of them was knocked out and had no feeling at the time of their death.
49 is a low figure when it comes to plane crashes. But everyone of them had family who don't really care about the numbers game. All they know is the loss they have suffered and that it could have been prevented in one way or another.
