Andy Chase
Well-Known Member
I'm w/ you roger, its easier to bundle up then to stay cool. Besides the cold makes the heat that much better and the heat makes the cold that much better!!
extreme cold temperatures!!
- Thread starter Shaun Tucker
- Start date
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Ken Crockett
Member
Good thing this week's NFC championship game is here in Phoenix this weekend. Mid 70's all week!
I love winter!!!
(I just don't want too much taunting come summer.)
I love winter!!!
(I just don't want too much taunting come summer.)
jason vocaty
Well-Known Member
Madison WI. -18 for the low tonight its cold!:angry:
- Joined
- Sep 21, 2003
- Messages
- 22,366
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- Location
- Long Island, NY
- What engine do you have?
- V8 engine
- What year is your Sport Trac?
- 2010
- What Generation is your Sport Trac?
- 2n Gen Owner
TJR,
I did not become my size from NOT eating at Famous places !!....
Yes I did, Food was good, Honestly no better then places here on the Island....
But none the less I would stop there if I go again..
And if your concerned I had a Egg white omelet with turkey, peppers and a small side of corned beef hash....
Todd Z
I did not become my size from NOT eating at Famous places !!....
Yes I did, Food was good, Honestly no better then places here on the Island....
But none the less I would stop there if I go again..
And if your concerned I had a Egg white omelet with turkey, peppers and a small side of corned beef hash....
Todd Z
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Plymthbob,
I didn't call you a liar, I just said it sounded like bunk. You said 18 deg. Even if you meant -18 deg (F), then I am still skeptical.
First off, you state that as you draw from the cold battery via the cig lighter the electrons thaw the slush of the battery acid. You said that increases cold cranking amps. Cranking amps are a byproduct of the state of charge (State of Charge, 100%, 50%) of a battery and the specific gravity of each fuel cell (ratio of water to acid) of the battery. Note that both vary by temperature.
What you describe, however is actually contrary to what this Wikipedia article states;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
Where it says in the Electrochemistry section:
That to me says that draw and discharge of the battery at extreme cold temperatures is more likely to cause it to freeze (more) than to thaw.
As for the freezing point of the typical sulphuric acid lead battery, that all depends on charge and ratio of acid to distilled water, however, my research (one source again below) shows the following freezing points at various charge amounts:
[Broken External Image]:
I found the above at this source (reputable or not, I don't know):
http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq4.htm#freeze_points
If we assume the freezing points above are accurate, a 75% charged battery doesn't freeze until -35 deg F.
So, yeah, I guess if you have a weak battery it might start to slush at -18 deg F. But again, you said 18 deg F, which at that temp even a dead battery won't freeze, so I doubt it is slushed much if at all. I don't think you were talking about dead batteries.
And, as I said above, discharging or drawing against a battery will tend to lower its freezing point.
I'll keep researching this "thaw effect" you mention...
TJR
I didn't call you a liar, I just said it sounded like bunk. You said 18 deg. Even if you meant -18 deg (F), then I am still skeptical.
First off, you state that as you draw from the cold battery via the cig lighter the electrons thaw the slush of the battery acid. You said that increases cold cranking amps. Cranking amps are a byproduct of the state of charge (State of Charge, 100%, 50%) of a battery and the specific gravity of each fuel cell (ratio of water to acid) of the battery. Note that both vary by temperature.
What you describe, however is actually contrary to what this Wikipedia article states;
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lead-acid_battery
Where it says in the Electrochemistry section:
That to me says that draw and discharge of the battery at extreme cold temperatures is more likely to cause it to freeze (more) than to thaw.
As for the freezing point of the typical sulphuric acid lead battery, that all depends on charge and ratio of acid to distilled water, however, my research (one source again below) shows the following freezing points at various charge amounts:
[Broken External Image]:
I found the above at this source (reputable or not, I don't know):
http://jgdarden.com/batteryfaq/carfaq4.htm#freeze_points
If we assume the freezing points above are accurate, a 75% charged battery doesn't freeze until -35 deg F.
So, yeah, I guess if you have a weak battery it might start to slush at -18 deg F. But again, you said 18 deg F, which at that temp even a dead battery won't freeze, so I doubt it is slushed much if at all. I don't think you were talking about dead batteries.
And, as I said above, discharging or drawing against a battery will tend to lower its freezing point.
I'll keep researching this "thaw effect" you mention...
TJR
Bob Alcaro
Active Member
TJR...
I said nothing about freezing, only alluding to the state of the electrolyte vs porosity of the plates at a low temp.
following excerpt from: http://www.powerstream.com/BatteryFAQ.html
"8. Storage batteries are strongly affected by changes in temperature. Both extremely high and very low temperatures are to be avoided. At low temperatures the electrolyte grows denser, the porosity of plates and separators decreases, circulation and diffusion of electrolyte are made difficult, chemical actions between plates and acid take place very slowly, and the whole battery becomes sluggish, and acts as if it were numbed with cold. The voltage and capacity of the battery are lowered.
As the battery temperature increases, the density of the electrolyte decreases, the plates and separators become more porous, the internal resistance decreases, circulation and diffusion of electrolyte take place much more quickly, the chemical actions between plates and electrolyte proceed more rapidly, and the battery voltage and capacity increase. A battery therefore works better at high temperatures."
I said nothing about freezing, only alluding to the state of the electrolyte vs porosity of the plates at a low temp.
following excerpt from: http://www.powerstream.com/BatteryFAQ.html
"8. Storage batteries are strongly affected by changes in temperature. Both extremely high and very low temperatures are to be avoided. At low temperatures the electrolyte grows denser, the porosity of plates and separators decreases, circulation and diffusion of electrolyte are made difficult, chemical actions between plates and acid take place very slowly, and the whole battery becomes sluggish, and acts as if it were numbed with cold. The voltage and capacity of the battery are lowered.
As the battery temperature increases, the density of the electrolyte decreases, the plates and separators become more porous, the internal resistance decreases, circulation and diffusion of electrolyte take place much more quickly, the chemical actions between plates and electrolyte proceed more rapidly, and the battery voltage and capacity increase. A battery therefore works better at high temperatures."
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Plym,
Thanks for the discussion.
You used the word "slush" if I remember so I assumed some things from that word.
What you posted above states that as a battery's temperature decreases its cranking amps (rating of its power/effectiveness) also decreases. Yep, I agree with that.
You also quoted that as a cold battery's temperature increases its cranking ability increases. Again, I have no argument there.
What I have trouble understanding and therefore taking on face value is the notion that by running the cigarette lighter you essentially "warm" the battery some significant amount.
Even if the draw on the battery warms it, slightly, the draw against the battery also reduces its charge and thereby decreases its cranking power. Assuming both competing factors are at play the question is: which one is greater?
TJR
Thanks for the discussion.
You used the word "slush" if I remember so I assumed some things from that word.
What you posted above states that as a battery's temperature decreases its cranking amps (rating of its power/effectiveness) also decreases. Yep, I agree with that.
You also quoted that as a cold battery's temperature increases its cranking ability increases. Again, I have no argument there.
What I have trouble understanding and therefore taking on face value is the notion that by running the cigarette lighter you essentially "warm" the battery some significant amount.
Even if the draw on the battery warms it, slightly, the draw against the battery also reduces its charge and thereby decreases its cranking power. Assuming both competing factors are at play the question is: which one is greater?
TJR
Bob Alcaro
Active Member
TJR,
or even put the headlights on for a bit.....any small amperage draw that will create the ions to flow between plates. this essentially will melt the slush (make it more liquid) thus allowing an easier ion flow between the plates. Imagine if you will a warming of the battery acid which will allow the higher cranking amperage (The std. lead acid batty. is essentially 25% acid and 75% water.)
Bob
or even put the headlights on for a bit.....any small amperage draw that will create the ions to flow between plates. this essentially will melt the slush (make it more liquid) thus allowing an easier ion flow between the plates. Imagine if you will a warming of the battery acid which will allow the higher cranking amperage (The std. lead acid batty. is essentially 25% acid and 75% water.)
Bob
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Plym,
I understand the concept. I just question if the draw will warm the battery enough to compensate for the reduced voltage that the draw creates. Those are competing factors. If you leave the lights on too long, you hose yourself.
TJR
I understand the concept. I just question if the draw will warm the battery enough to compensate for the reduced voltage that the draw creates. Those are competing factors. If you leave the lights on too long, you hose yourself.
TJR
jason vocaty
Well-Known Member
Thursday forecast for madison wi:angry:
gary s
Well-Known Member
yet another reason to get out of here. must finish out my prison term before i can go :lol:
hello, sunshine state
hello, sunshine state
Dave King 2
Active Member
Here in WI we had over four feet of snow in the month of Dec., and sub 0 weather. I live about 20 miles from Green Bay. It has been cold all week and they said tonight and tomorrow the wind chill will be -30 to -45. I don't consider it cold untill it gets below 0. 30 degrees here in the winter is sweat shirt weather. By the way I still have the oem battery that came with the trac. 01, job 2, Service service start date 6/19/01. I always say this will be the last winter, but it just won't die.
jason vocaty
Well-Known Member
04 battery still stock starts every time but i plugged it in tonight just in case!
