Fighting for All of America

[Tom Schindler]

re: UAW Throws Marines out of Parking lot by Gavin,11/11/2005 07:47 ET

I worked my ass off and scarificed for years getting my bachelors and two masters degrees, and also work my ass off for 60-80 hours a week for my job, but yet these greedy lazy union workers think they are owed over $50,000 a year plus full benefits, plus paid time off for striking for their 40 hour a week jobs and evenings bowling and drinking beer?

re: ExxonMobil earns Record $10 Billion Profit in Quarter by R Shek,9/13/2005 10:25 ET

1) Unions are worthless as they should have fought harder to make sure the execs gave up their bonuses first

2) Union members were highly overpaid for the work they do and the restrictions that they place on the employeer.

It is time for my nap before I leave for work. I will post more later.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

That's three, Caymen, keep going.



Regarding Gavin's post, please feel free to ask him if he thinks ALL union works are greedy and lazy or if he might have been a little emotional when he said that. Recognizing when people speak emotionly instead of assuming someone truly means exactly what they say is a very good skill to have. Conversly, I am starting to think that you, Tom speak both emotionally and deliberately, which is actually quite refreshing and rare.



Regarding Shek's #1, do you agree that there is merit in the idea that execs should give up their bonuses first when there is downsizing and salary cuts? If so, yes, the "worthless" comment may be a little harsh, but the intent of the message is worthwhile. You posted above about how Delphi is lowering union wages so that execs can get bonuses. That is an indictment of unions in my mind, a way of saying that unions are ineffective (in said case) when it comes to protecting its members AND doing what's right for a business. Ineffective could be seen as a less harsh version of worthless and clearly in this case unions aren't being as effective as they ideally would be. Again, part of that "thicker skin" comment I made, if you hadn't FOCUSED on the word "worthless", but instead read the reflected on what the original post stated, you would see, that it, just like in the Delphi case is a true indictment of union effectiveness.



BTW, maybe Shek's #2 shouldn't count because it said "were", but then again, I don't have the whole context.



Thanks, and as I said, keep going...



TJR

 

[Johnny O]

One of the problems on message boards is that you are only looking at the typed word, and things like tone, inflection, sarcasm, and humor can get lost in the translation. .02.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Exactly right, JohnnyO.



But that is also why I select my words very carefully.



A word like "worthless" means just that, without worth; void of any value.



If you use it, you really should mean it.



That's the difference I suspect with Caymen. He says what he means and means what he says (astounding, I know) and seems to expect everyone else does the same, and "many" do not.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

re: UAW Throws Marines out of Parking lot by Q,11/10/2005 15:03 ET

Screw the unions, they strongarmed their uneducated butts into companies and now they're the reason jobs have closed up shop and/or moved overseas. But at least a few people can still turn bolts for $50/hr. Now that's worth the price....

"uneducated" could that mean "unskilled" since they are uneducated?



I am not grasping for little words that can mean something else, but the attitude is the same. If I have no training in something, I am "unskilled" in that field. No training means I am uneducated in something. A direct jab at unions.





Tom



p.s. Time for bed. I am going to PA tomorrow to pick up a Tow Dolly for the motorhome.

 

[Gavin Allan]

I worked my ass off and scarificed for years getting my bachelors and two masters degrees, and also work my ass off for 60-80 hours a week for my job, but yet these greedy lazy union workers think they are owed over $50,000 a year plus full benefits, plus paid time off for striking for their 40 hour a week jobs and evenings bowling and drinking beer?

I stand by this quote. I don't think anywhere here I said ALL union workers were greedy or evil. I just don't see how relatively unskilled assembly line work is worth $50,000 a year, as well as getting full pay during strikes.



In my town, police officers who are required to have at least an Associates degree to get the job, and who daily put their lives on the line start at $20,000 a year, with the hopes of someday getting promoted to ~$28,000 after doing years of excellent work and continuing education. I know several teachers who make <$22,000 a year. I know many public employees in city and state government witih advanced degrees (masters and doctors) who make less than $35,000 a year. What is an average year in a state college worth for tuition and room/board (not counting lost wages, etc.? Probabably around $20,000. Many of the above folks I know have huge debt in college loans to repay.



Tell me how a striking, beer-swelling assembly-line union worker with hardly any skills is worth $50,000?



Now, I am also very familiar with skilled workers and the trades. Some unions have some of the best apprenticeship training out there (besides the military--they are clearly the best!). Some union training programs create some very skilled and professional workers, especially in the construction trades.



Yes, I have 15 years in manufacturing for Tier I automotive suppliers. I know what the majority of work is like at automotive assembly plants.



I have no problems with employees in a crappy company with lame, evil, or greedy management forming unions. I have no problem with anyone regardless of skill level trying to better themselves. My whole point is that the US manufacturing industry is rapidly going down the tubes and other countries are cleaning our clocks, yet some unions have strangled their US employers into an uncompetitive position. (Yes, I also agree that GM and Ford have also gotten theirselves into their current positions because of the crappy designs and poor quality of products compared to many import companies.)



Yes, even some of my best friends are union members.



My statements hardly say ALL are bad.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Gavin,



Why do you resort to name calling.

striking, beer-swelling assembly-line union worker with hardly any skills is worth $50,000?

Would you like it if someone assumed you were a dope head prostitute useing scumbag?



I wouldn't think so.



Call me that and you might have trouble picking up your teeth wih two broken arms.





Tom

 

[Gavin Allan]

Caymen, I think you need to go back to school and take some more English. The only name (noun) there is "worker". The other words are pronouns. I think the sentence was still only describing a minority of workers, not all of them are "striking, beer-swelling assembly-line union" workers.



Here, answer me this. Do you see anything wrong with this statement in an article in today's paper discussing the planned closing of the Ford Explorer Assembly Plant in St. Louis?

In Hazelwood, the speculation is concerning, considering the approximate 1,400 union workers there earn, on average, nearly $65,000 annually with overtime. The average Missourian earns about half that. United Auto Workers Local 325 President Ken Dearing did not return a phone call seeking comment. In 2002, Ford announced plans to close the Hazelwood plant.

$65,000 a year!!! For an assembly line worker!??!?



Look at what Missouri has been doing to try to keep the plant open:

But then-Gov. Bob Holden appointed a task force that helped convince Ford to keep the plant open, at least through 2007. In return, Ford received $9 million in state incentives and $8 million in local tax abatements. Still, declining sales of SUVs prompted Ford to shut down one of the plant's two shifts in December 2004, leaving 800 people out of work. "We know the domestic auto industry is under stress," the mayor said. "We also know the life of the Explorer product line is coming to an end of its cycle."

The state of Missouri has spent over $12,142 per Ford employee just to help keep the plant open since 2002!!! Do you see anything wrong with that? Even with this heavy subsidy, Ford still can't compete with other automakers!



Caymen, I am not calling you names. In fact, I don't think I have called anyone names here. I am just pointing out the absurd imbalance that US automakers with union employees have gotten themselves into. No, I don't really care if these folks can make $65,000 a year working on an assembly line-- more power to them. However, I know a whole lot of other folks who make less than half that who probably deserve more, such as nurses, teachers, police officers, social workers, prison guards, fire fighters, rest home workers, caregivers for the disabled, etc.



Now, I have nothing against you, and I appreciate 98% of your contributions here. The 2% that disturbs me is your "my union always right" mentality, which I understand is drilled into you from day one. Maybe when your job gets cut and sent to China, you will think differently.



Peace.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

[Broken External Image]:

 

[Tom Schindler]

Gavin,



Would it be acceptable calling the black race "low life welfare abusing fried chicken eating black person" be allright?



Would it be acceptable calling someone that is German "Nazi loving beer drinking saurkraut eating German" be acceptable?



Would calling a hispanic a "taco eating fruit picking vagrant" be cool?



Not hardly!!! It is both stereotypical and wrong. Never mind the fact, offensive to say the least.



How about calling a gay person names?



Not cool either. How can you justify calling an assembly line worker a name and think it is OK?



I see nothing wrong with someone working OVERTIME making $65,000/year.



If I were to work 7 days a week, I would make over $67,000/year. That is only working 8 hours a day. Keep in mind, most production lines are kept running 24 hrs a day, 7 days a week.



If they were making $65,000/year working 40 hours a week, you could be on to something. That would be $31.25/hr or so. Putting overtime in that equasion, the hourly rate really lowers to a more accurate $18.00/hr. (40 hrs M+F, 8 sat (1.5x), 8 Sun (2.0x) for a total of 68 straight hours) Total weekly pay would be about $1,224.00/week. Figure 50 weeks a year at that pay, you get $61,200.00/year.



When you actually look into it, the pay isn't that much.



Are you maybe having regrets on the career you chose and feel you need to justify what you make thinking others are overpaid?



BTW, the day my job goes to China is the day we become USA ROC (United States of America, Republic of China). When you build things that I do, those things are not made overseas. If they were, we would not be who we are. We would be giving up classified technology.





Tom

 

[TrainTrac]

BTW, the day my job goes to China is the day we become USA ROC (United States of America, Republic of China). When you build things that I do, those things are not made overseas. If they were, we would not be who we are. We would be giving up classified technology.

Don't be too sure of that, Tom. Classified missile technology was given to China during the previous administration.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Many here do have a harsh attitude towards union workers. Some have come right out and said Union workers are unskilled, lazy, and worthless. Some others don't say that directly, they have said it in a round-about way.

Harsh attitudes towards the workers? Nope, they are people too. I ask that they do their job to the best o ftheir abilities. If they are unwilling or unable to do so, then they need to move on and the company should help them "find something different, someplace not here".



Harsh attitudes towards Union?! YOU BETCHA! I dispise them. I have been e member of Teamsters in two different locations for more than 4 years combined. All they did for me was make my life a living hell for attempting to help the company and thus help me provide for my family.

1) Unions are worthless as they should have fought harder to make sure the execs gave up their bonuses first

2) Union members were highly overpaid for the work they do and the restrictions that they place on the employeer.

I stand by both of these 100%. If Unions are so blessed in this country, they shure layed down and took what they got. The process that happened began long ago when Unions stopped allowing competition and began the blackmail process (yep, blackmail. You let us work the way we want our you get no production, NONE), Instead of working to gether for the betterment of the company and all employees (union/non-union) they were out strictly for the Union, the company be damned. They forgot that if the company went bankrupt, all employees lost, including the Unionized force. Union members are highly overpaid for the average work they do. That is not to say the non-average job (electrictions, plumbers, miners, et al) are "highly" overpaid. I am an electrical engineer. I can do close to 75% of what an electrictian does without any issues and probably with more theoretical knowledge of what is going on below the Voltage/Amperage of the job. At trade shows, we routinely pay $150/hour (1 hour minimum) for plugging 480VAC 3-Phase NEMA plugs into an outlet. 5 plugs, taking a total of 5 minutes (that includes flipping the disconnect), we get charged $150. If we are caught plugging in the plugs ourselves (as engineers, salesmen, etc) it's a minimum of $300 (2 hours) fine.



Restrictions? Yep. Costly for the company? Oh yeah. Costly for the worker? Big time. I have a degree in Economics as wells as electrical engineering. Trust me, I've studied the CBA of Unions on businesses of all sides. I've done reports on it. Unions and Taxes are some of the easiest ways to kill a company, no matter what the size. Anyone say Delphi? Delta? US Air? United? GM? Ford?

 

[Tom Schindler]

Why are thse companies being "killed" by unions?



Wait, they cite too much being paid out in pensions. Why are the pensions underfunded?



The company did not fund the pension like they were suposed to. The made false claims on how the investments were doing.



Those big companies are in the hole they dug. The ones that will suffer are the employees that worked hard for the company. The executives already got thier money. They could care less about the company once they are gone.



Who are you paying for the electric plugged up? The union or the contractor. Since union halls are not employers, you are paying a contractor to do the job. Is it the union or the contractor charging you too much? Lets say the electrician is making $30.00/hr plus another $40.00 in benefits. Mind you, I am giving the contractor the benefit of the doubt. The contractor is making $80.00. Most electrical contractors don't charge $80.00/hr for field service, yet that company is making that? Blame the unions for that?



Lets not take the easy route and blame unions. I know that is the whole agenda of the government starting from schools to the media. Bust the unions, bust the unions. If we would quit acting like sheep and following what the sheppard it telling us, we might be able to add two and two.





Tom

 

[Chops]

Call me that and you might have trouble picking up your teeth wih two broken arms.

This drama is so, so funny!!

Keep up the entertainment!

 

[Ryan Y]

yeah, God forbid anyone state their opinion on unions, but it's ok to threaten.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Ryan, the two phrases: "Union strongarm tactics", "picketing union thugs" come to mind.



Caymen was being emotional when he said that, I suspect. But we should not forget that we are defined by our words and our actions, not just by who and what we claim to be.



For example, I claim to be a "student of human behavior", but my actions show that I am not learning very much as I continue to fan this fire (not necessarily my intent).



Let's try to keep it civil folks.



TJR

 

[Ryan Y]

 

[Tom Schindler]

TJR,

Caymen was being emotional when he said that, I suspect. But we should not forget that we are defined by our words and our actions, not just by who and what we claim to be.

You are exactly right.





Tom

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Who are you paying for the electric plugged up? The union or the contractor. Since union halls are not employers, you are paying a contractor to do the job. Is it the union or the contractor charging you too much? Lets say the electrician is making $30.00/hr plus another $40.00 in benefits. Mind you, I am giving the contractor the benefit of the doubt. The contractor is making $80.00. Most electrical contractors don't charge $80.00/hr for field service, yet that company is making that? Blame the unions for that?

We pay McCormick place in Chicago who has the unions working for them. If it weren't for the Union control, we could plug the damn things in ourselves as we do everyday in our shop. McCormick place is a Union shop, mechanical, electrical, plumbing, forklift operators, etc. We have to use them or we can't play. In Cleveland, the IX center is non-union for everything but electrical. It costs us 1/2 the price to do the same show that we do in Chicago. Go figure.

Lets not take the easy route and blame unions. I know that is the whole agenda of the government starting from schools to the media. Bust the unions, bust the unions. If we would quit acting like sheep and following what the sheppard it telling us, we might be able to add two and two.

Perhaps you're right about being easy to blame Unions.... course they are easy because they just as much fault as the executives. I don't know where you live, but everything I see is just the opposite. Unionize all the schools. Unionize all the hospitals. Unionize all the government employees. Unionize Wal-Mart (won't happen). Who are you saying are following the sheppard? I do beleive it's the union meadership telling the stewards when to strike, what to do politically and what they shuold and should not do while on the job. The union bosses told the American Airlines pilots union to stage a sick out in protest.



Now again I ask, who's the sheep?

 

[Tom Schindler]

The point I am trying to make it this.



McCormick place is charging you $150.00/hr for an electrician. How much of that money actually goes to the electrician. How about to the plumber or anyone else working there? How much is McCormick place making per hour? Could they be making $100.00/hr? I am not picking fights, I am just using some reasoning. Could McCormick place be using those high charges because they can and you have no choice but to pay it.



IMO, the executives are more at fault then the unions. Do we know the full story about any of those "walkouts"? We really don't. Another thing to consider. As a collective bargoning unit, we can only work in numbers. One person stands up and gets "shot". 100 people stand up and they might get "shot". Everyone stands up, it is impossible to "shoot" everyone. When someone votes, one vote for Elmer Fudd for president wont make a difference. If everyone votes for Elmer Fudd, it will get noticed.



Smetimes a walkout is all it takes to get the point across. Instead of an actual strike, everyone calls in sick. The point gets made and the problem gets solved.





Tom