Fighting for All of America

[Michael Cacioppo]

Unions are required so that many non-skilled laborers can get paid more than many equally skilled laborers are willing to work for. Plain and simple. If, in general, the union jobs require a lot of training, where do the companies get the non-union workers from during a strike to continue production? The definition of "skilled" is very nebulas. A good machinist is a skilled laborer, a person that mounts tires is not in my opinion. The person that guides a fork lift is also not, in my opinion.



Getting to unions being a monopoly, why can't I get a plumbers license without working as an apprentice for several years to a union plumber. I have 5 years of formal Mechanical Engineer training, 37 years of on the job training in fluids, electrical, structures etc. in various aerospace industries. I can design as well as fabricate fluid systems. Yup, even a toilet bowl. Why...cause the trade unions want to restrict non union members. Most plumbers working in the Urban areas on large jobs are unionized. Do you think it takes 5 years to learn that sh*t flows down hill. I don't think so.



Caymen, you do make some legitimate statements about the abuse of some management, but in general you spout the union party line.



You are entitled to do this and I am not criticizing you for it. I am just expressing my disagreement with some of your work ideology.

 

[Chuck Lake]

This is getting quite long winded and I’m drained from reading it. Once this is all settled can someone just let me know the outcome? I need to know whether unions are the saviors of the American way of life or the spawn of Satan. I have a fifty riding on the results. Thanks :lol:

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Doughboy, I hope you have your $50 on SATAN.

 

[Tom Schindler]

MikeC,



I agree. You are a mechanical engineer. You know how plumbing works. Can you do the work? I am not saying you don't, it is a legitimate question.



I have seen non-union "plumbers" work. I do inspection. Many people that are suposed to be plumbers can not figure out how to actually do the work. My brother-in-law is a union plumber. I have a friend that is one also. Compare thier work to some of the work I have seen scares me to death.





Tom

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

Sticking it to the little guy. If pension accounts would have been properly funded, states would initiate a health care system that covers everyone, and limit the ammount of imported goods vs. exported goods, we would have little to worry about.

This is the typical liberal line (I am not calling you one, but am pointing out a fact). The big guys harm the little guys. The government needs to control everything so it's all fair. Health care should be left up to the government. But all of that is another arguement al together.

I agree. You are a mechanical engineer. You know how plumbing works. Can you do the work? I am not saying you don't, it is a legitimate question.

I can't speak for MikeC, but even as an electrical engineer I can do plumbing. I have done it at my parents home and mine. I am 28 years old as of today. Have I speant 5 years under a "master" plumber? Nope. Have I spent any time in the construction industry? Nope. But trust me, I can sweat a pipe as well as anyone else. I can and have done enough drain pipes to make me realize that I don't want to be a professional plumber. It's also true with the electrical side. Being an Electrical Engineer, I have the most upto date versions of NFPA, NEC and UL codes. I have personally worked with any and all power systems from LVDC up to 575V systems. I can safely say that besides concrete work (which I 'could' do but have never done) I can build my own house. No unions needed.

Since you "own" the shop, you agree to those terms by contract

Yes and no. Yes I would own the shop, no I won't agree to ANY union contract. Not needed. Go elsewhere for all I care. I will never employ a Union member in my buisness. No exceptions. Renounce the union and you are more than welcome. I will not deal with the terrorist organizations, namely the AFL-CIO (and anyone union associated) and Teamsters.

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

R Shrek, Yes I can execute household plumbing, electrical and structural. I can tile, paint and repair. I have used Okum ( an oily rope) and lead seals which few plumbers can install correctly. I've built additions, completely remodeled kitchens and baths. I can install/replace breaker panels, wire houses, install alarms, etc. The only thing I do not do is roofs. I don't like heights. I know the electrical and plumbing codes 'cause they're published and I can read (sorry for the sarcasm). I've seen union work and in many instances, I'm not impressed.



I am not trying to attack the skill of many union members, but in many instances the job can be done as well, for less money, if the labor market was truly open.



Many times the union will go on strike regardless of the profitability of the company. I think they don't realize that if the company folds, so does their job. I remember when the unions insisted and received a contract with the railroads where the "fireman" position ( the guy who tends the steam engine boiler) was maintained on ELECTRIC trains.



The pro union people will taut the exhorbitant salaries of the upper management of some companies. In this they are correct. Lower management however doesn't see this kind of greed in their paychecks.

 

[Tom Schindler]

R Shek,



Ultimatly, if your employees vote a union in, the only way out of it is to close yur doors. That could ruin your life.



Is it worth it?



A union is not a bad thing. Treat them right and be fair, you have nothing to worry about. Buy one Lexus car for each day of the week, then claim you are not making money, you are asking for trouble.



Scratch my back, I'll scratch yours.



MikeC, you are an exception to an engineer. Most engineers I know have trouble filling thier gas tank. I am not calling them dumb, they just are too smart to do those. as they call it "simple things".





Tom

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Caymen, I take a little exception to your statement that engineers have trouble doing manual things.

First off, college doesn't make you smart. It just introduces you to knowledge that you either absorb or not ( believe me many don't). Education is not necessarily a measure of Intelligence. There are many PHD's that can't manually fix anything. The intelligent, non college trained people, do very well in establishing themselves in business. Comparing college graduate salaries as being higher than non college salaries strictly due to the college process is a farce. The people able to attend higher educational facilities are GENERALLY more intelligent or educated than the non college bound people. Salary comparisons between college educated and non college people are therefore unfair since the non college people ALSO include the dregs of our society which brings salary averages way down. There are PLENTY of brilliant non degreed people who do very well for themselves and have great capability.



Now that I finished that diatribe, never assume that a degreed person is capable of performing many tasks better than non college grads. You are correct that many degreed people never really work with their hands and can't fix anything. They are usually made executives.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

There is a pervasive stereotype of the "egghead"; the learned intellectual that can't pour piss out of a boot with the instructions on the heal; the type with no common sense and a general inability to do anything manual, say like change a tire or possibly even worse, a general knack of overcomplicating the most simple task, say like changing a lightbulb.



But it's bigotry and stereotyping, akin to thinking all union members are unskilled, lazy and overpaid.



And, like most stereotypes, these start from a few very prominant "bad seed" examples observed by and then folklored about by "small minded people."



Most "larger minded people" recognize that an entire group cannot be summarized by the actions of a few.



TJR

 

[Mark Grumpy]

MikeC said

The people able to attend higher educational facilities are GENERALLY more intelligent or educated than the non college bound people.

Sorry Mike, but I don't agree with that. They are more educated as you point out, but not generally more intelligent. What they are, for the most part, is wealthier. It is their wealth (I use that term as more a classification such as middle or upper class versus poor) that allows them to attend and receive secondary education - not their intelligence. Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying college grads are not intelligent, just that you don't have to be intelligent to be a college grad.



Having a degree in underwater basket weaving would make me a grad' - not necessarily an intellect.



(Yes - I do have one, not in basket weaving though)



grump

 

[Thomas Rogers]

You suspect you made an attribution error there, Grump.



Mike was stating an opinion that those "able" to attend college are generally more intelligent than those not bound for college.



You then state it is their wealth, not their intelligence that allows them to go on to secondary education. That is sort of implied by Mike's choice of the word "able", isn't it, as I suspect he meant "financially able"? But if he meant "academically able", well than the point is moot, because those academically able to go to college are clearly more intelligent then those who are not bound for college because they are not academically able.



If Mike meant "financially able", than I further suspect that he was assuming those that are "financially able" come from homes where higher education is valued, and prepared for at a young age, and what with SAT prep classes, and a general attention to education, the logical belief is that such people are "generally" better prepared for higher education, academically and therefore could be viewed as having "higher intelligence".



Grump, you then say: "Don't take me wrong, I'm not saying college grads are not intelligent, just that you don't have to be intelligent to be a college grad."



To that I have to agree, but then that's a tangential point. Mike never said ALL were intelligent, he just said they were "generally more intelligent".



I suggest you ask Mike to define "able" and "intelligent" in the context he was speaking and then see if you agree or disagree with his "general" assessment.



TJR

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Grump, let me clarify. "able" was used in two contexts, financial and academically. As pointed out families that can afford college for their children are usually degreed themselves or are successful in a trade or business. In either case, they are usually above the norm in capability and intellect. Successful businesses often times are carried on by the children, i.e. plumbing, electrical, builders, mechanics, etc. And why not take the opportunity of a family business instead of laying out $250K to earn less money.



As far as intellect, most applicants are accepted into college by their grades and SAT scores. The ones with the higher scores get in. So yes, they are a little more intellectually capable than the ones that got poor grades. That doesn't mean that the all ones that didn't apply are less intellectually capable, but their density in the remaining population is much less.



Grump, to summarize, there are intelligent degreed and non degreed individuals. The intelligent distribution in college degreed individuals is higher than in the non-degreed population.



I know many "sharp" individuals (non-degreed) that have great intellectual capability. I happen to know more that have advanced degrees. That's all I'm saying.







edit: I hope this dialogue is not taken the wrong way or any smear is implied against anyone's capability or intelligence on this site.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Good clarification MikeC...and that is what I expected you would say!

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

tracnblack, I hope all works out well for you. If people would only evaluate vehicles for themselves and stop listening to the hype, there would be more U.S.car sold and less of the foreign models. People buy foy image in many cases. "Bimmers", Lexus, Honda, etc. are generally no better than U.S. made cars when maintenance costs, sale price, etc. are all taken into consideration. Take the BMW. The BMW is expensive for what you get. I'd take a Cadillac CTS with V6 sport package rather than a 3 series. They're the same price and the CTS is cheaper to maintain and doesn't have electrical problems like the BMWs.



When you replace your cam belt on a honda you might as well replace your water pump because it is so buried into the engine that you must take half the engine apart to replace it.



I'm not saying that the Asian and German manufacturers don't make decent cars, but check the real cost and compare. Mercedes requires about $2k in routine service a year if you take it to a dealer. Never mind the cost of replacement parts.



I believe that many U.S. cars have caught caught up to and in some instances exeeded the competition. Anyone want to compare a corvette for price/performance against any foreign manufacturer?



Hundai makes a decent car at an affordable price. Check the sheet metal thickness next time you see one. Thin paint and thin metal is what you're buying.



I'm not saying buy American regardless of product. I am saying open your eye and buy a quality product, not a quality image.

 

[Rich Stern]

the type with no common sense and a general inability to do anything manual, say like change a tire

Tires need to be changed? When? :unsure:



On a more pertinent note, I want to thank all of you for being relatively civil in this discussion. It's an important topic for the time we live in, and it's good to see perspectives being exchanged, with minimal insults being tossed around.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Quality image gets alot of people to buy.



A guy at work just got a Nissan Quest. Older model, the Mercury Villager clone.



He was complaining about his wife's Crown Vic she has. All the work it needs done to it. New starter, seats are worn, the doors don't shut very well, and a few other problems. The Ford was a piece of crap and he is getting a Nissan.



After he got the Nissan, I informed him he was driving a van made by Ford with a Nissan engine and tranny. His jaw droped to the ground. He thought he was buying a Nissan. Now he thinks he got a pile of crap.





Tom



p.s. the Crown Vic had 240,000 miles on it.

 

[Nelson Atwell]

You're right Tom. Quality Image does get a lot of people to buy. That is why corporations protect their trademarks so fiercely. If anyone could build a car and call it a Ford, Ford's image in the community could be tarnished by inferior products.



There is even a term for it in accounting and it has a monetary value on company's balance sheet.

GOODWILL is that intangible possession which enables a business to continue to earn a profit that is in excess of the normal or basic rate of profit earned by other businesses of similar type. The goodwill of a business may be due to a particularly favorable location, its reputation in the community, or the quality of its employer and employees. The evidence that goodwill exists is the proven ability to earn excess profits.

 

[Michael Cacioppo]

Nelson OKC, I thought GOODWILL was a non profit organization and I don't think they make excess profits. :blink: