I emailed my uncle- This is his take on fuel and oil additives from his research job

[EddieS'04]

The first is my question to him.

Hey unc,



Im continously having arguments with my online auto buddies. That most

additives or all are snake oil.

My belief is that good oil & filters and fuel is the key.



If you ever get a chance can you give me a write up of some of your

research. Some of these guys think they are know it alls. Always braging

about this additive and that one. In my over 40yrs I never lost a motor.

Broke alot of other parts..LOL



The only motor failure was from a 318 timing chain housing. The coolant

passage leaked to the pan. Turned an insert. Not the oils fault.



You know me I push my motors hard and never lost one. I say they are wasting

there money.



Their lastest kick is Sea-Foam and Lucas. Funny we have a bunch of guys that

are always feeding others info that has been snake oil, longer than we are

old..LOL



I also recently read an article that, Sta-Bil gas preservent doesnt work

with any fuel with ethanol.



If I need your correction, tell me. I can take it....LOL



Eddie

This is his answer.

Please do not forward with my name attached, share verbably if possible.

Some of this is can be viewed as some what confidential!







First gasoline, the additives that are put in most major station gasolines

are all that is needed. The three Tier one companies that put the same or

better additives in all three grades are: Shell, Texaco, and Chevron.

There are some of the other majors have good additives but may only be

available in their premiums. This changes from time to time as some change

their advertising and focus more on cleanliness in their fuels. Texaco

fuels are used in testing for Motor Trend and Shell is used for Car and

Driver testing. For instance Shell VP power has a triple dose additive that

will cut deposits to great extent after about 3 tanks fulls. We verified

that in testing when we ran engines with unadditised fuels until an adequate

amount of deposits were accumulated. The engines on a variety of vehicles

were then torn down and the amount of deposits were documented. Then the

vehicles were reassembled and then 0-60 tests were taken a long with advance

curve data. Then the same test was done after running 3 tanks of the test

fuels. The deposits that were removed allowed the engines to detect less

knock so that allowed the computers to advance quicker therefore the claims

in performance were made. All engines were torn down again to verify the

amount of deposit removed. Shell sells the V power additive and Chevron

sells Techroline. Texaco and Chevron use the same additive package. These

are proven additives. There are some additives that we tested do some good

but not as much as these. Some of the additives also do not perform well

because they do not they do not mix well with the water bottoms that are

present in most gasoline stations. I never fill up at any station that is

having gasoline added to their tanks for that reason due to the stirring.

As you stated maintenance and good fuel is foremost in protecting any

engine. The addition of ethanol as a oxygenate in gasoline? MTBE did a much

a much better job but it did not help the farmers, a political football to

say the least. Ethanol/alcohol burns hotter and cuts your fuel economy at

10 to 15% in most vehicles. MTBE was taken out because of spill in CA. and

CARB which has an incredible influence with the EPA, was fearful of ground

water contamination if gasoline tanks began to leak.



I was not involved too much in oil as I was in gasoline. The tests were

conducted in the labs next to ours and I will tell you what I gleaned from

some of the tests after talking with their technicians. Oils for gasoline

and diesel engines differ quite a bit. The additves that are used in diesel

oils are not good for the catalytic converters in gasoline engines. Shell

Rotella T also has an additive that keeps the soot in suspension in the oil.

I was involved in a NY yellow cab taxi test involving conventional oil on

7,500 oil change intervals and pure synthetic oil using 25,000 oil change

invervals. Upon inspection, the engines on synthetic oil were cleaner and

had slightly less wear than conventional motor oil. The engines with

synthetic oil actually looked almost new. I can not state which synthetic

oil it was but it was very popular brand. As a result I use synthetic oil

in all of my gasoline engines. If you use the same oil change intervals

that you use with conventional oil, you are probably wasting your money. I

use the oil monitor that is used on my car which calculates city and road

miles into the recommended intervals. If a vehicle does not have that

capability I would go at least 15K on an oil change and then you would

probably be changing it needlessly. I too have heard people making claims

about Lucas and some other additives. I have a neigbor that has about 300k

miles on a truck. He had lifter noise at about 250k and added some Lucas

that he claims has helped quite a bit. I suspect if would change his oil a

little more often and use a slightly heavier weight oil due to the wear on

the engine he would accomplish the same thing. Amsoil and Royal Purple makes

some claims as well that are probably not worth the extra expense. On oil,

the only real test is to take samples and have them analyzed for metals and

contaminates. I use Sta-bil in my generators that sit for months on end with

out starting and never seem to have a problem. Thats not to say that it

might not work as well were it sits in a tank in vehicle that has a fuel

pump within the tank. As stated earlier some additives do not mix well long

term and can clog the fine screen on the fuel pump pickup or clog an

injector as well.



As far as your buddies using different additives in their fuel and oil. If

they think it helps, I guess that is all that counts. The only damage will

only be to their wallets.

 

[Jeffrey Travis]

You are setting yourself up to have many ask....who is your uncle? and how is he an expert?



Just giving you the warning, that you should expect.

 

[Jim parnell]

+1 on his credentials, and seems like some additives do work to remove deposits as advertised based on "unc's" comments.



What is the difference in paying more for the Tier one gasolines noted in his response vs buying a bottle of "brand x" fuel injector cleaner/seafoam on an occassional basis?

 

[Johnny O]

I guess I'm SOL. There are no Shell,Texaco, or Chevron stations in my part of the country. :driving:



I will note that when it comes to oil, the oil geeks at BobIsTheOilGuy.com, where we get UOA's and post the results, have always had good results with Shell, Havoline, and Chevron conventional oils, along with Pennzoil and Motorcraft. Again, where I live Shell and Chevron oil is rarely found.

 

[EddieS'04]

You are setting yourself up to have many ask....who is your uncle? and how is he an expert?

Your right, but this bottom is his first statement. Im not telling which companies he worked for, but more than one.

Please do not forward with my name attached, share verbably if possible.

Some of this is can be viewed as some what confidential!

I believe he is talking of the additives allready, in what top tier gas is.

+1 on his credentials, and seems like some additives do work to remove deposits as advertised based on "unc's" comments

Credendtials is that he is an lube and fuel scientific anylysts. Over 40 yrs in the field. Hehas had the experiance of seeing the actual results hands on. Not a bunch of data presented to him.

What is the difference in paying more for the Tier one gasolines noted in his response vs buying a bottle of "brand x" fuel injector cleaner/seafoam on an occassional basis?

$$$$ when it is already in top tier fuel. Him and I Have had alot of talks over the years about the changes in cars additives performance parts and all. He is only 3 yrs older than me, Im 60. We have both been gear heads since the late '60s.

If

they think it helps, I guess that is all that counts. The only damage will

only be to their wallets.

I think I have said this many times on this board about OTC additives.

 

[D Perry]

I don't know the OP nor his Uncle but after researching a lot myself over the years and talking to many top mechanics that I know from the racing world as well as private shop owners who I absolutely trust, I agree with the OP's Uncle.



Most of the additives do much less than they claim and by the time people think they need to use them the problems have already started and the products actually add to the problems as they break down or get used up before they can actually produce long term results. Good fuel and regular oil changes (synthetic or conventional) from the day the vehicle is new will go a long way in extending the life of an engine.



The 3000 mile misnomer is just a marketing scare tactic used to increase sales for the slimy quick lube places and also most of the brand name oil manufacturers.



Thanks for posting your Uncle's comments, Eddie. Good reading.

 

[scott degroot]

Commenting on the additives that clean engines, he said that they ran engines until an adequate amount of deposits had occured adn then ran 3 tanks of the other fuel and it cleaned it up. I would be very currious to know just how long and how hard those engines were run to accumulate "adequate" deposits. In a real world scenario a daily driver that had about 60,000 miles on it would have been used. I don't doubt their results in a controlled environment but there is no such thing as "controlled" when it comes to automotoive use and the public.

 

[EddieS'04]

1tech.



I can say they speced motors and offered them to LEO's and taxis. They also ran many different brands motors on stands. Some at most wot some at idle some at rpm cruise speeds. All these motors on stands were not free wheeling. Dyno loaded. Some ran for months at a time. some ran for what a city driver may do in a month. Then they tore them down and reinspected the componets.



He may be my uncle,but he has not had reasons to lie to me. Our motors never failed. only softer parts...

 

[Bill Koonce]

Travis is right. Unless you're uncle is willing to put his name behind his words, and show his credentials, his word is no better than the next guy's. In fact it's worse in this case because Eddie S used prejudicial, leading language. He also failed to ask about situations like mine. So even if Uncle is an expert, the sad fact is that Nephew is asking Uncle to take Nephew's side, and not be objective. These two points make Uncle's reply worthless to everyone except Nephew.



I was amused that Uncle did tacitly endorse Sta-Bil by name after refusing to mention the name of other products. :rofl: FYI my Sta-Bil label says that it's specifically made for use with gasoline containing ethanol. BTW, since my 10 year old Mustang with less than 20,000 miles on the odomeder needed not only a new in-tank filter, but a whole new fuel pump as well without Sta-Bil, I'm going to go with my real and true experience over the musings of Uncle X.



As a past and present resident of corn-producing states, I know that Uncle was wrong about why ethanol is used in place of TEL, MTBE or other octane boosters. The real reason is that farming has become Big Business, and lobbyists from giant farming corporations like Con Agra spend lots of money on lobbyists. Those lobbyists have earned their pay. Today it's practically impossible to buy gasoline that doesn't contain ethanol.

 

[EddieS'04]

I could care less if Im not believed, from what my uncle has said. If you want to choose his words worthless to all but me. That is your bussiness and I harbor no resentment.



I will say this he is tied to a confidentialty signiture. Iam also tied to one from the job I retired from. I had to sign the second one to get my early retirement severence.

Another one Im tied to is what I did for 22months in 'NAM. None of these positions have ever given me a letter of release.



Maybe some of you have never had confidential papers to sign. From personal talks with my uncle. This post is his email and the most he would let me reveal. He dont BS on technical matters. I didnt ask him to take my side. The last words of my email to him.

If I need your correction, tell me. I can take it....LOL

Eddie

In fact it's worse in this case because Eddie S used prejudicial, leading language

Maybe I should not used the word argument. But that is what I have seen it to be, in all this back and forth about additives, th 6 yrs on this board. one says yes one says no. My info was from an oil company anylist.



So be it believe it or not..............:kiss_it:

 

[Bill Koonce]

Eddie, I intend no offense here, but it looks like you care very much about being believed. You can't rightly deny that you're putting a LOT of work into promoting your own point of view as the only "right" one. From where I'm sitting, it sure looks like you're putting vainglory ahead of helping others.



I haven't been around here for six years, don't know what was said in years past, and don't care about your little holy war. I do care that the person who asked a legitimate question in the one and only thread where I saw your diatribe against additives first gets a good and genuinely helpful answer. So far I've been impressed by the lack of ego-driven posts here. I'm disappointed that now there's an entire thread devoted to that toxic "I'm right, you're wrong" narrative.



I've made my points on this matter and I stand by them. If anybody can prove me wrong, I will be the first to congratulate them. I sincerely hope that you get the recognition that you seek. I hope that you earn it, though.



Peace be with you.

 

[EddieS'04]

Not trying to be right or wrong. I dont come off the top of my head. All I did is went to a source that knows something. No ego involved. Just a relay mesenger. Maybe I should not have said he was my uncle. I dont think it wuld have mattered though. I will say I dont use OTC additives. Been a gear head long enough, I fix it. Before my dad passed. A mechanic told him to use some lucas fuel additive and change the fuel filter. It didnt fix it. Coil on plug #3 cylinder was dead. Still not trying to be right. I live from experiance.

I will use 90% rubbing alcohol, if I know it is water in the gas. Its cheaper.



BTW; I keep fuel stored for my home generator. I went and looked at an old bottle of sta-bil and a new one I bought for this huricane season.

The old bottle didnot recomend ethanol. The new one said safe for ethanol. Go figure.



Also their have been thousands of ego driven post by many members. There comes a time when all want to right..LOL Hang around awhile.



Peace brother

 

[Bill Koonce]

Eddie,



I agree that things that need repairs should be repaired, and that additives will not fix them. I don't see anybody here claiming that additives are effective substitutes to repairs when needed. But just because they can't mend things permanently doesn't make them useless or fraudulent, as you've been claiming. I have a hunch that you didn't mention my particular situation to your uncle because deep down inside, you do know that there are legitimate uses for special products.



It doesn't matter that he's your uncle. I don't think that you or he is lying about his credentials. But after teaching people how to find valid data to back up what they say in public, I would be a hypocrite if I didn't point out that his wish for anonymity does disqualify him from being an authoritative source. That's how public discourse works, at least among educated and sincere people.



Here's an idea for you: ask your uncle for books (title, author and ISBN), journals (trade magazines) and learned papers published by respected organizations like the SAE that support your contentions. It could even be something your uncle wrote; you don't have to tell us. If you can produce stuff like that, which is considered to be authoritative, then you will have made your point.



Ethanol is hydrophilic too. Years ago, when gasoline had no ethanol and we sold a lot of Heet(R), and I used a lot of 90% Isopropanol aq. for cleaning recording equipment, they cost about the same. I doubt that Heet had anything special to make it any better than drug store Isopropyl, and never had to use either in my cars ever. I don't what I did right or what others did wrong, but I've never spent a dime on dewatering my own fuel systems.



I've been using Sta-bil since I discovered it in a parts house a couple years back. I don't know how long Sta-Bil has been around, but I was working as an auto mechanic when the first ethanol-related problems with older cars started coming into my shop about 30 years ago. (Back then, 89 octane was leaded; 87 and 91-93 was unleaded and 91-93 had ethanol to boost octane in Illinois.) I can't imagine any fuel additive made within the last 10 years wouldn't be ethanol-aware. That's the time that the second separate "welfare for corn producers" above and beyond the existing USDA corn bonuses was enacted, and ethanol as a gasoline additive became nationwide.



Thanks for being a good sport. I look forward to discussing more fun topics with you.



Bill

 

[Bill Barber]

Am a firm believer in the gas additives shell and chevron use.

Just installed a JDM stage 4 package on the Roush (requires a colder plug)

pulling HTO two piece plugs can be a nightmare for some, they tend to break off in the head if the ford TSB is not followed due to carbon buildup.

have never used any gas other than the above, after 20 K miles, no carbon, no issues, the plugs looked as new.Removing them was a piece of cake.

 

[Larry Gamble]

I know when I buy Shell gas I get better performance than when I fill up at the discount fuel station slightly closer to home.



I never get predet with Shell, but the discounter's gas always makes motor noise. Where I'm at I have few choices, 1 Shell, 1 Mobile (always the most expensive) and three discounters.



It means I always spend an extra penny or two a gallon for Shell, but the wife and kids will put cheapo stuff in it when they buy gas.

 

[Jerry Medlin]

I have personally talked with Carrol Shelby about Z-Max that he endorses on TV commercials. What he told me was,"do you see that I say that I stake my reputation on Z-Max and that it actually does what is claimed,and that I put it in ALL my cars"? I said yes I hear you SAY that. He looked me right in my eyes and said, "If it didnt work I would say it OR use it, nuf said"!

 

[Bill Barber]

C Shelby will endorse anything to make a buck,the guy is wack, have you tried The new carrol shelby wine?no Joke.

 

[Jerry Medlin]

Bill Barber are you nuts, A WHACK!!? The guy that built the cars that destroyed the Ferrarie, or however you spell it, at LeMans,the guy that FORD staked their reputation on, the guy that put American muscle on the international market, the multimillionaire, THAT frankly doesnt need Z-Max's money. THAT CARROLL SHELBY!?? are u fuc#$@ nuts!!!!!!!!:soap:

 

[Bill Barber]

not Nuts,carrol shelby is a nut case,am not saying this with hatred toward the man.

35 yrs ago he was great, today he is a wack, albert Einstien was a wack,Bill clinton (one of our better presys, was a wack,todd zabia is a wack, i'm a wack.

Most great people are wack, now do you understand?

 

[Jerry Medlin]

NO Bill I dont because you also said , he would endorse anything to make a buck!! The man could buy and sell you and me, he doesnt need Bruton's money!!:argue: