I saw this commercial on TV and thought of Tom (Caymen)

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The next thing you will tell us is how great of a company WALMART is ! They have put thousands of people out of work and the tax payers pick-up the cost of their workers health care



TJR may not but I will. Let me tell you a few things here:



1) Walmart is bringing competative products to communities that may not have had said products. For instance, up until 6 month ago, the only places in Jonesboro, Arkansas to buy a TV was Walmart and Officemax. Officemax had TV's 20" and smaller, where WalMart had all the sizes you could want.



2) For every Wal-mart store that goes into operation an average of over 200 permanent jobs are created (stockers, cashiers, maintainence, janatorial, management, etc). Some store hire double that.



3) When was the last time you saw a Walmart sitting by itself in a field? More than 75% of their stores are located in strip malls in heavy traffic areas. Most of the other stores in the strip mall benefit from Wal-mart being there generating traffice by their store. I know that if it were not for Walmart, I would not shop at Hibbet Sports, Payless Shoes, Goody's, Baskin Robins, Steak Escape, Dollar General, Friedman's Jewelers, and several other stores that surround the two Walmarts in town.



4) Yes, a few stores go out of business when Wal-mart comes to town. A FEW, that employ on average 4 people per store. It takes 50 average stores going out of business to make up the difference labor wise with (1) Walmart store. I know where I am at that never happened. I don't know of any store that has gone out of business solely because Walmart came into town.



5) Wages.... don't get me started. I've worked Union shops and I've worked Non-Union shops. Wages were similar for the same type of work. UPS is a Teamster shop. Been there, done that. Is there a need for someone who puts packages on a shelf in a truck to make $9.50 an hour? Should a bagger at Albertson's or Schnuck's make $11/hour? I am a well educated engineer. I spend 5 long years studying to get where I am. If I can do it, everyone can. I just hit the $21/hour mark this year. For every dollar that wages increase, it raises the prices on the goods and services produced by that organzation. When every company does this (which they have to do to maintain competability), all prices for G&S goes up and we have what is called INFLATION. Artificial inflation by the means of Taxes and Wage Hikes are not a good thing and severely diminish the growth of the economy as a whole. That means that there is actually less money in people's pockets.



6) Walmart offers low prices for several reasons, one of which is their cost of labor. If the cost of labor increases, prices will rise and the purchase power of the dollar will significantly diminish. Then it takes larger and larger wages to purchase the same items.



7) Walmart cashiers make above the minimum wage where I live.



8) Walmart along with McDonalds, Taco Bell and K-Mart are not supposed to be where you work as a cashier for life. They should be jumping off points for an actual career. Very few people will go from cashier to CFO.



9) The tax dollars generated by Wal-Mart on their daily sales is greater than the daily business sales of about 50% of the other businesses in town.



10) Walmart offers unskilled and uneducated laborors a chance to become self-sufficient and lean some of the necessary skills to obtain better and higher paying jobs



11) Pensions? WTF??!?! Are you nuts? Pensions worked real well for WorldCom, Adelphia, Enron, Global Crossing, etc. No thanks. Give me that money now and let me take of my own future, independant of what happens to the company in 40 years. I do not want to be tied to the production that future generations do. Worked real well for Delta, United, Ford, GM and othe
 
13) My employer is not shopping my job in China or India. They can't. Not because they are incapable of doing my job there, far from it. My job is 50/50 production/service. I have hands-on relationships and working knowledge of our customers because roughly 75% of my companies production is site-specific.



15)
Four out of five union workers get health insurance benefits
Wow. Impressive. 100% of my companies non-union workers have health care benefits. So your point was again?



16) I joined UPS shortly after the big strike they had 8 years ago. The ink on the page wasn't even dry and there was already talk of another strike. That's genious. You work for a company because they allow you to. If you piss them off, they will not pay you any longer.



When a union strikes, it doesn't affect the livelyhood of Jimmy Hoffa Jr. He still makes his millions off your dues. Your paycheck (and the support that it provides your family) is significantly reduced as you are paid from a strike fund. So that's usually what, 25% of your normal pay? I don't know about you, but that 75% loss would devistate my familiy and I would cross that line and your silly signs and slogan be damned. My family is what matters to me.



17)
Union members earn better wages and benefits than workers who aren’t union members
Care to bet on that one? I know two instances personally that this is not always true:

- I worked for the San Diego Wild Animal Park for three years. Teamsters at a Non-Profit organization... nice touch. "The Unions Keep Your Wage High" was the excuse. Yep sure did. Minimum wage at the time was $4.75. My pay... $5.50. When I paid my $50 monthly dues, my average hourly pay dropped to $4.60/hour. Yep kept those wages up.

-Several major companies that I know of has their engineering staff unionized. This year, they averaged under 3% raises. I picked up a 7% raise this year in a non-union shop for a company that has little competition for engineering staff. Most of the big boys have all kinds of competition for their engineers. I get paid better than many of the 10 year engineers that I know of and I've been in industry for 4 years (this is all of course comparative based upon the particular area of the country you live in. I could not live on my salary that I have now while living in San Fransisco).



I hope you have and retain a union type of wage and benifits. If you do not good luck !



I will never, repeat NEVER work for another UNION shop in my life. All unions are are self-serving sub-governmental entities that don't really care about the workers when it comes down to brass tax. They burden members with "taxes" on working. They extort companies. They support organizations, politicians and policies that are contrary to roughly half of the members (if recent political results are indicative of union membership). You see a lot of Union based compaies faltering/failing. There are definate reasons for that. Legacy contracts are choking the life out of once grand companies. Union are anti-competative in their practices and won't allow US based businesses to compete with Chinese counterparts. In the market of capital investment today, it's hard to accept that a US manufactered product is 200% better than a foreign counterpart based on price. Yes, it may be better. But is that worth a 200% price difference?



There are ZERO guarentees in life. Zip, zilch, nada. The only thing that I am going to do is provide the best life for my family and provide for their needs. That does not include any union membership. I will allow my children to become a member of the union if they so desire, but there will be frank discussions about what they will be getting into before they do. My children's grandfathers will be much more upset about them joining than I will. My children will be free to work at Walmart, but unless they are in upper management, that will not b
 
Wow. tracnblack, wlukus, you guys might want to live in fear and with the fantasy of how "big corp greed" would ruin our country if not for unions, but sorry, I'm not buying it.



Our people still run this country and our govt still does, for the most part, what it thinks is best for its people and what the people want. I firmly believe that. So, if the drug companies get a break, well then I honestly think that it's GOOD for the people and what most people want. If WalMart is displacing the "mom and pops" and then I think it must also be "what the people want." Before you jump on that, read on...



I say this because, we elect our govt, we have a voice. I am NOT a defeatist or an alarmist like you guys seem to be. The govt we have, the policies it makes, are because of "us"...we the people. I will NOT take an "us vs. them" attitude when it comes to me and my government or me and big business. Doing so would TOTALLY discredit myself, and be an admission that I am insignificant that I can't fight these things. But WE can! And furthermore, it's not a fight. WalMart is what it is because people shop there. Walmart gives people exactly what they want, lest the wouldn't be profitable. Our govt gives us exactly what we want, lest we would vote in other officials. See my point?



Protectionism is NOT the answer. We get what we get through our actions and decisions, whether that be companies, or govt, or salaries or benefits.



We have choices in this world, and we all have a voice. Those that think we need to be artificially protected in order for those around us to treat us fairly are very low-ego people, IMHO.



TJR
 
R Sherk

I know that you are venting but you should be grateful that their was a UPS strike and the public supported it. Before the strike UPS wanted all partime jobs that had no benifets. The public and union preasured UPS to increase the wage ,give you health care, a retirement plan and a 401k !



Walmart is doing what UPS tried to do. Yes they make items afordable but they have also put many manufactures out of business.



How is your 401K safer than a pension ?? Where is it invested ? I have both,a vested pension and 401K but my 401K took a big hit when the stock market was down.



I do not know how much Pfizer has invested in R&D for Viagra! Please tell me ! I do know that Viagra is made over sea's. One tablet press produces between 40-75K tablets a hour. Also this year President BUSH let Pfizer bring in $50 Billion profit ( YES Billion cash ) tax free from its over sea's operations.The FDA does not regulates drug prices...



TJR

Protectionism is not the answer but you must agree 1 voice alone cannot change many things.A union allows its members to act united for their benifet .The members elect the International Reps who's effort helps everyone.



 
R Shek says:
...but you must agree 1 voice alone cannot change many things.



Right...but one voice alone can unite many when and if needed.



Wouldn't you rather have that? I mean wouldn't you rather have mercenary union reps that come in gather and unite the employees behind a common cause when needed, do their jobs, take their "cut" (pay, or somesuch), then move on? Might it even be better if you did it without outsiders; instead unite and stand strong when needed? Why must unions, union dues, union membership be a full-time thing? The only reason I can think is because people lack the ability to mobilize and unite in this way without some large organization that is there all the time. And, if that's the case, well then, there goes to my point again...people get what they deserve, and if you need to be led like sheep, then baaaaa....



TJR
 
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TJR

Your are correct and that is what is great about a Union. Our union brothers and sisters will unite when needed for a issue that does not just effect them.Remember a Union is a democracy which the majority can vote to get rid of if they feel a need to. As you stated before, people have a choice of where they want to work. Just like in Washington, you can join any party and vote for the issue they sponcer or you can just write the president.! I would love not to pay taxes and still have the same benifits of living in the USA. Any way you put it my choice of being in a union and paying dues is a bargain !!
 
>> NEVER FORCED !! It is a democrtic concept.



So if I'm a union member and there is a vote to go on strike, but I don't agree with the strike, yet it gets voted for, then am I on strike or not?



And, if my bros and sis' go on strike what happens if I choose not to (scab?)...are there reprisals?



TJR
 
TJR,

In the past, the other union brothers and sisters, or Scab Buster they hired will block your entrance to work and beat your ass to a bloody pulp But they will do it very democratically, (I think they they ask for volunteers to do their union duty) :D



In my opinion, to Strike is just another form of extortion. In most cases the unions alrady have a contract but want more money or a better deal. How do you deal with people who don't honor their current contract and go on Strike?



I guess President Reagan knew what to do when the Air Traffic Controllers illegally went on strike. He fired them all and the world is a better place because of that.



...Rich





 
TJR

Any majority in a democatic vote rules , unless your brother is a Florida Govener! Your choice is first to work in a non-union company, have some brotherhood and support the strike or walk through the picket line. The air traffic controlers were wrong to strike but they had poor working conditions and safety issues. They did break their contract and made the wrong statement.



RichardL

What 1st hand experience do you have where you read a contract and know that a union went on strike asking for more ? Are you a Lawyer ?? I ask because my employer now hires lawyers as HR people .



Q

Fact more non-union jobs leave this country. Also their are world wide union alliances. Most of Europe/ Austria requires the business to have unions. They also work less hours a week than the adverage US worker/ more vacation too!
 
wlukus

Well it was a while back while I was working for a division of CertainTeed Corp here in Waco, TX. The corporation owned a wood plant that made wooden windows, doors, and custom molidings, etc. We also owned and operated a metal plant that manufactured aluminum windows, as well as storm windows and doors.



The wood plant was a union plant and the metal plant was not. I was salaried working as a Senior Programmer and not part of the union. About 2 years after I started working there, the wood plant union went on strike because they heard that CertainTeed Corp had planned on selling the wood plant. While they were still working under their existing contract, they went on strike as a protest to demand that CertainTeed sell the plant only to someone who would continue to operate the plant as a union shop. They had no say in who the owner sold the plant to, and would not make that a condition of the sale. This strike occurred just a few months after the union had just negotiated a new contract for the wood plant workers.



The strike lasted only 3-4 days and about a year later the plant was eventually sold to a company out of New Jersey, and I understand that they did not accept the unions offer. That company operated the wood plant for about 5-6 years and eventually it was closed and the building was torn down.



There have been several incidents on the news over the past ten years where various unions threated to go on strike in violation of their current contract. I don't remember which unions they were but in some instatnces they were threatening to break their contracts and strike for reasons that were not even covered in their original contract. I know some excuses were based on the fact that the thought the company was making more profit than they originally thought.



...Rich

 
NEVER FORCED !! It is a democrtic concept.



How many states are Right To Work? How many are not? In those that are not, a Union shop is FORCED ENROLLEMENT. California and Missouri (where I was a FORCED member of Teamsters - forced being if I want the job, then I had to join the Union).



unless your brother is a Florida Govener



That's rich... Use some Dumpocrat talking point from 6 years ago that has yet to be proven true (all recounts even those using the Dumpocrats "idea" of a cast vote still show that GWB won the election...



...and know that a union went on strike asking for more

American Airlines Pilot's Union's "Sick Out" in 1999...



They also work less hours a week than the adverage US worker/ more vacation too!

And thi sis better how exactly? Last time I checked, Western Europe isn't exactly the hotbed of innovation or production. Lean Manufacturing to the Europeans is low-fat cheese on thei sandwiches.



R Shek says:Quote:



...but you must agree 1 voice alone cannot change many things.



That wasn't me.... sorry. I would say that that is false anyway. Susan Komman (sp?) for instance and her family, and the Demorat's favorite's include Michael Moorefood, George Looney, Myr. Ray "Chocolatetown" Nagin, Jesse "The Racist" Jackson and AlGore. What they say becomes gospel, even if it's completely and utterly ridiculous and wrong.

One voice can do quite a bit.



I know that you are venting but you should be grateful that their was a UPS strike and the public supported it. Before the strike UPS wanted all partime jobs that had no benifets. The public and union preasured UPS to increase the wage ,give you health care, a retirement plan and a 401k !

Nope, not venting. I am definately not grateful for the UPS strike. All it caused where I was at was animosity in the workplace. Labor distrusted managment. Managment distrusted labor. We had four individuals who made it a goal to write at least 10 greivances everyday. Where whould they find the time to do that if they were doing their job and were not so concerned about what somebody else was doing? I did not get a 401(k) from UPS so I don't know where you got that from. I would have been happy to be making $7 as a part timer in college... it was still a step up from what I was doing before that. Retirement Plan? Sure. If you say so. The UPS strike gave the union at FedEx pause as they were about to do the same thing. When they saw the absolute backlash against the Teamsters (and yes, there was a backlash) they thought differently and took a different approach. I had friends working at FedEx at the time and they passed over some of the information that they had been given at that time.



My uncle is a Union Electrician. He is too proud to take a job that is not out of the Union hall. Hence, his soon-to-be ex-wife had to work 8-10 hours a day to make ends meet. He could have worked in high-paying skilled jobs anywhere (he is an extremely brilliant man and very talented with electrical knowledge and experience) but he was a Union-Till-You-Die guy. That attitude has literally torn his marriage and familiy life apart. That's his choice, but he could not provide for his family.



Working for a company is not a right... it's a priveledge just like driving. You can and the company should have the right to take that priveledge away with good reason. I have plenty of first hand experience with people who should have been fired (one for nearly killing a coworker in a fight) that the union would not let the company fire. Sorry.... Failure is still spelled U-N-I-O-N.
 
Actually, I meant the board game for 10 year olds. You political debaters usually remind me of them.



[Broken External Image]:



I'm moving to Canada.
 
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" Q "



If I show you a link proving that only 8% of labor is organized and job loss to NAFTA alone is 2.4 million jobs can I send you a Union Organizing card ??

 
RichardL

Thanks for sharing that ! The plant that I work for is being sold for the second time in 6 years. We do not have a clause in our contract for sucession eigther.Both buyers have agreed to acknowledge the union and our contract.We are paid about 15% better than other companys is the area but a lower wage for this industry. This area is very Republician, conservative and also anti-union.Other large employers in this area also hate our union due to the fact that they must increase their wage's to keep their employees. Our managment of course are also highly paid but must put up !$%^& from corperate. Enigineers out of school start @ 70K and the adverage home in this area cost 240K. The big issues with my employer are them breaking the contract and having lawyers in HR to deal with. The USW does support the local union very well.
 

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