Interesting way to get out of a ticket...

[Tom Schindler]

(a) Speed limits are created for the health, safety and welfare of the public.

Debatable, but I will agree with it.

(b) Enforcement of speed limits furthers this state (or municipal) interest.

Same as above.

(c) A speed trap is nothing more than enforcing the aforementioned in an area where speed limits obviously are not followed; if they were, no one would be pulled over.

Lets find the definition of a trap too put this into perspective...



trap

Pronunciation: \ˈtrap\

Function: noun

Etymology: Middle English, from Old English treppe & Anglo-French trape (of Germanic origin); akin to Middle Dutch trappe trap, stair, Old English treppan to tread

Date: before 12th century

1: a device for taking game or other animals; especially : one that holds by springing shut suddenly

2 a: something by which one is caught or stopped unawares; also : a position or situation from which it is difficult or impossible to escape b: a football play in which a defensive player is allowed to cross the line of scrimmage and then is blocked from the side while the ballcarrier advances through the spot vacated by the defensive player c: the act or an instance of trapping the ball in soccer d: a defensive maneuver in basketball in which two defenders converge quickly on the ball handler to steal the ball or force a bad pass



Having the speed limit lower going down a small hill for no real reason, other than to generate revenue, is wrong.

(d) Enforcement, whether by radar or vascar, furthers a legitimate state (or municipal) interest.

It is a tool used to help speed up the process of collecting money.



Now, lets put all this into a different light. Going down the interstate and the speed limit is 65 MPH. When you enter a urban area with XXX people living per square mile, the speed limit drops to 55 MPH. I have no problem with that. That is done for safety.



That same highway goes down a slight hill into an even more rural area and goes from 65 MPH to 55 MPH. That is a speed trap. There is no reason other than to generate revenue is wrong. There is no safety issue. the road is straght with no curves.



Checking speeding is one thing. Having 15 cops on the road with a trap looking for speeders while there is a fight on the other side of towm and there are no ifficers to respont is not about safety, it is about money.



If you honestly feel different, I don't know what else to say.



Maybe our difinition of a speed trap is different.





Tom

 

[Thomas Rogers]

A speed trap is legal. It's not police or local jurisdictions stealing. We may not like them, but they are legal. Sure, they are often a lucrative revenue stream for local law enforcement and local townships. But, they are legal, and if one is abiding by the speed limit then one needn't worry about them.



That doesn't mean I like them any more than the next guy. But I won't try to claim they are illegal.



TJR

 

[Tom Schindler]

They get no direct compensation from it though I guess in some jurisdiction moneys do go directly to their departments but even in those I still bet that the officer is not thinking about how much money they can go out and collect from tickets.

Yea they do. They are told to issue so many citations per month. If they fail to do that, they can lose their job. So, yes, they do get direct compensation from citiations.

As I said while I personally do not like the idea of speed traps I certainly would say that it is a "trick" or stealing. It is a technique to use to enforce speeding laws, no one is tricked into speeding they are just caught by surprise. I have participated in a few "speed traps" because that is what my supervisor told me I was going to be doing that day.

Going down a slight hill with no reason to lower the limit is a trick to cause you to speed. You are driving one speed. You go down the slight hill and still drive at 55 MPH. The speed at the bottom of the slight hill is lowered to 45 MPH, without any reason at all, you are tricked into speeding. I live near Firestone Country Club. Right behind the course is a small road. The speed goes from 45 MPH in a semi-urban area (houses on each side of the road, semi close to each other) to 35 MPH with houses on only one side of the road further apart. There was no town change. Both are the same municipality. Convieniently enough, the right side of the road has places for the cops to hide RIGHT behind the speed limit signs.



That is a speed trap. You are tricked to speed in that area. You are keeping your speed and without any reason, the speed limit gets lowered and you get a ticket. That is theft.





Tom

 

[biznaga]

Back in the 1970s I worked on RADAR guns in Tucson, AZ. That is I repaired and certified them after testing them with calibrated tuning forks, etc.



I always said if I got stopped for speeding I could claim it was acting funny whyen I released it for service.

 

[Fudged Undies]

There's a road down here is SoFla, St. Rd. 27. It's a 4 lane highway that runs through little nothing towns. When I say nothing towns, I mean like one or two buildings. In the "openness" of the highway the limit runs 55-65. The few times I've driven it, there hasn't been much traffic in comparison to other highways. Anyhow, when you hit the towns, the limit will drop to 35 with no warning and I do mean no warning. You're half way through the town by the time you notice. For those who travel it frequently, no big deal, but seems like a "trap" to me if you're not familiar with the road. "Speed traps" my not exist legally, but this comes pretty close do defining the term. Tickets are frequent on this road and though most cops will say there is no quota, I beleive this varies from district to district, just my opinion though.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Tickets are frequent on this road and though most cops will say there is no quota, I beleive this varies from district to district, just my opinion though.

It is all part of that "Code of Ethics" pledge officers make. They pledge never to tell the secrets or rat out another cop...even if the cop was wrong. You know like a Magician will never tell his secrets.



They never tell and if one does, 100 say they are lying and the one that squealed will never be a cop again.



I know a cop real well. Friend of the family. He has spoken some things and others I was greeted with the "Code of ethics" thing.





Tom

 

[Johnny O]

What the local police emphasize on enforcing is pretty much up to the local town council and mayor.

Fact is, although we appreciate the police and the job they do, breaking up a domestic disturbance does not put money in the town coffers like a speed trap does. The town where my office is located is like that. They don't do a lot of speed traps any more but it's real easy for a lost trucker to end up in town and their overweight fines are insane, as are the parking tickets.

 

[TomT]

We can't have a legal system that allows "Fruit from the poisonous tree"

I completely agree with you and I hate bad cops more then anybody but "the system" allows just as much if not more abuse by the criminal then the cops. Criminals are constantly being let off because of "technicalities" . Although I don't condone any cop trying to buck the system, I can't honestly blame them since our laws are designed more to protect the criminal instead of the victim.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

TomT said:

I can't honestly blame them since our laws are designed more to protect the criminal instead of the victim.

Actually, that's not completely correct and fair. If you need simple way to consider the framework of our laws, consider this paraphrased saying:

Our laws are designed with the belief that it is better that 100 guilty men go free than allow 1 innocent man to be wrongly convicted.

Again, sometimes that general approach to our laws leaves a sour taste in my mouth when it comes to specific cases; but in general, I am glad our system is as it is.



TJR

 

[A K]

If you honestly feel different, I don't know what else to say.



Maybe our difinition of a speed trap is different.





Tom

Fair enough. I also think, however, that things are a little different between the states. I really cannot think of a place where the speed limit drops in the situations you described. Where I am from, the highways, when reducing speed, all have pretty visible orange notice signs. There is one stretch of a smaller U.S. highway (29) that often jumps from 55 to 25 to 35 to whatever, but it also traverses through rural areas, then towns, and then more rural areas. I can't really I've ever been surprised by a speed change, but then again, much of my time behind the wheel is spent with wandering eyes (safely). So, I guess I pick up on the stuff.



The only experience I have with speed traps is vicarious--when I was small, I remember my dad was pulled over with my entire family in the car. A local jurisdiction, on the same road, changed the speed from 35 to 25, but did so with the signs much too close (i.e., you see 35, sneeze, and you're in a 25 zone). My dad, along with many others, challenged it, and the town properly spaced the signs. That, undoubtedly, was a trap, but the only one that I recall.



But, I guess it all makes sense. Theoretically, if traps are huge revenue generators, towns must have officers available to enforce the trap. But, where I'm from, many, many towns are solely under the jurisdiction of the state police (towns too small to support one or two cruisers). So, you can't trap them without a hunter.

 

[TomT]

Quote:

Our laws are designed with the belief that it is better that 100 guilty men go free than allow 1 innocent man to be wrongly convicted.

And how many of those 100 go on to rob or kill another innocent victim?



TJR. We can paraphrase ourselves to death about the way our system works but the sad truth is there are way many criminals walking around free today and people are getting fed up with it. I'm tired of liberals being more sorry about the criminals then about the victims.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

TomT, I hear you. As flawed as it is, however, the same laws that protect the innocent in this country can be used to allow a guilty man to go free IF all the appropriate steps in sentencing and convicting aren't taken. Those laws in are place to protect the innocent.



Sadly, it seems we can't have it both ways...protect the innocent and assure the guilty are punished.



TJR

 

[Gary Kong]

From Caymen



The ultimate goal is not, as some may suggest, to increase revenues for my jurisdiction. (my words)



You need to fix your typo. Speeding tickets are revenue for many communities. (Caymen's words.)



What typo? I thought I was pretty clear with, "The ultimate goal is not..." I never said there was no collateral benefit that trickled down to us, I just said it wasn't the ultimate goal. Or, by "typo" did that mean I misspelled something?



It's an old axiom, but still very true. Cops don't make laws, we only enforce them.



As far as a profession wide pledge not to rat on other cops, etc., I must have been off the day they made my dept. do that pledge. Maybe that's why I don't know the secret handshake or wear the secret decoder ring. I have arrested cops. My colleagues have arrested cops. People can't possibly believe that the tens of thousands of cops in this country are part of a cabal pledged to keep secrets , permit inappropriate (perhaps criminal) activity, etc.



Now, the questionable speedtrap thing might be something done in parts of the country and in small jurisdictions but I am not well travelled enough to refute that practice. It reminds me of that movie with John Candy, Demi Moore and Dan Ackroyd where Candy is a small township cop that runs a speedtrap and Ackroyd plays a senile, crazy judge who won't release anyone until they pay the fine in cash.



Out here, the time alloted to the issuance and processing of an uncontested citation probably costs close to what the citation brings in...and a disputed citation with the involvement of a prosecutor, court time, cop overtime, etc. is a definite money loser.

 

[Gary Kong]

Sorry, double post.

 

[Todd Z]

Here in NY there is a rule that an officer must have his lights on weather he is sitting in the median or in the woods, doesn't matter, but the car lights must be on after dusk, Or it is considered intrapment...



Todd Z

 

[TrainTrac]

A speed limit is a law, and it's a cop's duty to enforce that law by any legal means at his disposal. I have no problem with that.



But here's what really chaps my hide: It's also that same cop's responsibility to obey those very same laws unless involved in a pursuit or other emergency situation. I can't stand it when I see a squad car blow by me on the highway at 85-90 mph or greater with no lights on just because he thinks he can. If a cop has a legitimate reason to break the posted speed limit in the performance of his duties, then he damn sure better have his lights and/or siren on out of consideration for the safety of others on the road and himself.



Otherwise, obey the posted speed limit, just like you expect the average citizen to do. I had one blow by me today, and if I would've had more time, I'd have followed him back to the station and spoken to his supervisor about it.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Otherwise, obey the posted speed limit, just like you expect the average citizen to do. I had one blow by me today, and if I would've had more time, I'd have followed him back to the station and spoken to his supervisor about it.

A major observation I see is seat belt use. About 70% of the cops I see on the road do not wear them. Highway POatrol, it is about 50% that wear them.



Lead by example? Safety first?





Tom

 

[Gary Kong]

Train Trac: There are lots of reasons why we speed w/o lights and siren. Sometimes by policy. You're right, though, sometimes we take advantage of being in a unit and speed w/o justification but I wanted to clarify that there are bonafide reasons why we might speed without lighting up under certain specific circumstances.



Caymen: You're right. It was a BIG issue in my dept. Now, if you are in an accident and it is determined that you were not wearing a belt, you will lose any workers' compensation benefits and your disability claims will be challenged. It is a written policy and depending on the supervisor, you can get put on the beach if caught. In reality, we see so many gruesome, horrendous non-seatbelt injuries and fatalities that I can't imagine why someone would not wear one at high speed.



At VERY LOW speed, there is a danger that sometimes necessitates not wearing the belt. Badguys will ambush cops driving by on patrol going slowly, so some cops keep the belts off so that they can draw their firearm (right nanded cop driving with shoulder/lap belt cannot get a weapon out). I do that, rarely, and only at crawling speeds. Yes...I have had badguys pop out to the side of my car, and I have also had to bail out to grab or help someone.



I certainly hope that my responses are not seen as challenging anyone's opinions or observations, and I am not an apologist for poor police conduct. I'm just trying to give some cop points of view on things. I respect all of your opinions and interpretation.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Eltee,



Growing up in a "black neighborhood", I have seen more bad cops than anything else. I have been wrongly arrested. Sure the charges were dropped, but an arrest NEVER comes off your record



Understand this. I was wrongly arrested and now I have that record of an arrest on my record for the rest of my life.



I was not guilty of what they claimed I was. He knew it when he arrested me. The cop was just playing bad ass because I was driving in a drug infested neighborhood. Duh, I live in the neighborhood and I work late. Of course I am driving in a drug infested neighborhood. Maybe the fact I said since the cops were aware it is a drug infested neighborhood, maybe they should work at cleaning it up, pissed him off. It still does not change the fact that I was driving home from work and driving into a drug infested neighborhood.



Maybe the officer thought a guy with no money, an empty lunch box, and dirty clothing fits the profile of a guy looking for drugs.



I am sure the drug dealers accept Visa and Mastercard.



New Dept. Homeland Security rules require me to get a more in-depth background check to work with what I work with and I know this will show up.



I was arrested unfairly and that incident NEVER comes off my record. That was 16 years agao and I am still F'ing pissed about it.



There are some good cops out there. Unfortunatly there are a bunch that are not worth the bullet to put them down.





Tom

 

[Gavin Allan]

Cops around here ALWAYS have a cell phone to their heads whenever they are driving around or just sitting. Most of them are talking to their girlfriends (while they are married). Divorces and cheating rates are horrendous for cops around here. When off duty, many cops get s-face-drunk. Ask me how I know? My ex-wife was a cop.