New Tranny or V8 swap??

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Richard,

I am not by any means trying to start an argument here, I am simply trying to defend my position with the information that I have. If you would like to continue this conversation outside of the forum please shoot me an email and I will gladly discuss it with you. Now, on to my argument... :D



I still have to disagree with this. The reason that the Ford engineers said that they could not fit a V8 in the engine bay of the 2nd gen Sports or 1st gen Sport Tracs is because when they came out (2001) the 5.0L engine was phased out by Ford and replaced with the 4.6L engine. The very last vehicle that the 5.0L came in was the 2001 4 door Explorer. Starting in 2002 they did not use the 5.0L in anything, so they did not consider the engine for use the Sport Trac because they had already planned it's phase out by the time Sport Trac production started. There is no feasible way to fit the 4.6L in the engine bay of a 1st gen Sport Trac. Unfortunately, this is all the engineers had to work with from their "parts bins" for the 2001 model since the 5.0L was phased out. This is the reason they told you that a "Sport Trac will not accept a V8"



The 4.6L V8 is a much larger engine then the 5.0L V8 due to the SOHC design versus the old OHV design. A fully dressed 5.0L V8 isn't that much larger then a 4.0L V6 SOHC due to the size of the heads on the SOHC to allow for the additional valve train components. The only thing you really gain with a 5.0L V8 over the 4.0L V6 is overall length, which is accounted for by the V8 Explorer's short front drive accessories that hug the block more then a mustang or F150 based 5.0L V8.



As far as the front end of a Sport and Sport Trac being "different and distinct" then a 4-door Explorer, this is also not true The only thing significantly different about the front end of the Sport Trac and a 4-door Explorer is the sheet metal. Structurally and mechanically, they are identical. All the components from a 4.0L SOHC 4-door 97-2001 Explorer will fit in a Sport Trac. The engine, radiator, accessories, transmission, engine mounts, etc are all the same and mount in the same places. In addition to the drive train components, all of the front suspension components are exactly the same as well. Ball joints, axles, control arms, steering system, torsion bars, etc are all identical between the two. If you don't believe me, look up part numbers, they will match. This is the reason that a Superlift (or any other brand) front suspension kit for a 95-01 4-door Explorer will bolt right onto a 2001+ Sport or Sport Trac.



Now I know I compared the components of a 4.0L V6 SOHC 4-door 97-2001 Explorer to the Sport Trac above, but here's the catch. The V8 and V6 frames on 95-01 Explorers are exactly the same. The only difference is what is bolted into them. Therefore, by correlation, if a 4-door V8 frame is the same as a 4-door V6 frame, and a 4-door V6 frame is the same as a Sport Trac frame, then it is apparent that a 4-door V8 frame and a Sport Trac frame are also the same. (All above frame references are to the front half of the frame only, which is where the drive train mounts anyway, and is therefore the relevant part of the frame. A Sport Trac frame is obviously different from a 4-door frame(longer) in the rear. This is not relevant to this topic though.)



A 5.0L V8 from a 4-door Explorer will easily go into a Sport Trac without much more then a drive shaft modification and maybe a transmission crossmember. I have done my homework on this. As I said before I own (not owned, but currently own, and have on hand) both of the vehicles that I am talking about and have made the comparison first hand and with measurements. It will work.
 
Regardless of where the mounts are, the Sport and Sport Trac will not accept a V8. That is what the engineers told us a the Louisville plant for serveral years until the new 2007 Sport Trac changed over to the new Explorer chassis and body style.
Click to expand...



Didn't those same engineers say that converting the rear drums to Disks can not be done since the braking system was different then those later models with the rear disk?





Tom
 
Brad,

The different sheet metal makes all the difference in the world. Yes, kyou can make a V8 fit if you don't mind hacking away at the inner fender liners and perhaps the firewall. But because the regular 4 door Explorer had a V8 does not mean a V8 will simply bolt into a Sport or Sport Trac.



There are about 12,000 members here, many who have wanted a V8 in their Sport Trac for many years. If it was a simple bolt in operation there would have been dozens who would have done it by now.



Tom,

Actually I do disagree. The engineers did not say it was impossible. They said that they would not recommend doing it. That's all.



You actually did it and it turned out very well, but you had a conversion kit. Most people at the factory were talking about taking the rear disc brakes off of an early Explorer and adapt them. That may or may not have worked. ( I personally think it would) but you purchased an engineer conversion kit that obviously increased your chances of success....And I salute your machanical ability and determination to do it.



...Rich



 
You actually did it and it turned out very well, but you had a conversion kit. Most people at the factory were talking about taking the rear disc brakes off of an early Explorer and adapt them. That may or may not have worked. ( I personally think it would) but you purchased an engineer conversion kit that obviously increased your chances of success...
Click to expand...



The kit I used was OE parts based off the 1996 Explorer. Calipers, rotors, parking brake, pads, banjo bolts, mounting bolts, washers,...everything is identical to the 1996 Explorer. The kit was nothing more then everything in one box.



There is another member putting a 302 in his Trac. How it is progressing I don't know. I do know that my brothers 1999 Explorer 4 door is identical under the hoos as my Sport Trac is. Same everything. There is no reason a V-8 couldn't fit under that a hood. As said before, Ford already had the 302 on the chopping block and it just wasn't financialy probible to continue building 40,000 of them a year. The 4.6L will not fit, I would bet $100.00 a 302 will without a problem.





Tom
 
Officially, the rear brakes are different if for no other reason then the pressure applied to rear brake shoes compared to rear brake calipers. That alone would officially make them different. Ford could easily sit there and say they are different from this perspective.



The braking system was developed for each vehicle with the type of rear brakes in mind at the time of the engineering.



We all know that for the most part, rear pads are MUCH better then rear shoes. From the braking capability to the ease of replacement.



That said, I would venture to bet the master cylinder and the ABS system is different when you compare rear shoes to rear pads.



I would still do as Tom did and make the swap as at our level, there is nothing better then having rear pads.



My point is, I am betting there is a technical difference in the ABS system and the brake master cylinder from rear shoes to rear pads.



Is it enough to be an issue? I don't think so. Is it enough that you could be liable for making the swap? Probably so if you consider the other parts that work with the brakes, meaning the ABS system and the master cylinder. The OEM units were not designed to operate with the change over parts at a level the engineers designed it to be.
 
Tonka Trac, Good luck and post lots of pictures of all phases, please. :cool:
 
Richard,



The metal inner fender panels and the fender rails (the structural portions under the outer fender skins) are the exact same part numbers on a 4-door V8 and a Sport Trac. Look up that part numbers your self if you don't believe me. The only thing different on a Sport Trac is the exterior fender skin (no where near the engine) and the plastic fender liner/splash shield (which is only different to match the different wheel openings of a Sport Trac). The plastic fender liner is not structural at all, it only keeps water and dirt from the tires coming into the engine bay. You wouldn't even have to trim it anyway, because it doesn't intrude into the engine bay anymore then the fender liners on a V8.



So we've got the same thing on the left and the right of the engine, so no fitment issues there. What about the front of the engine? The radiator supports (structural steel piece that the radiator mounts too) are also the same part numbers between Tracs and 4-doors. Once again, if you don't believe me, check it out yourself. This means a V8 radiator will sit right in where the V6 radiator was.



The last thing to consider is the Cab/firewall since we have the other 3 sides of the engine taken care of and clear. Now, there are no direct comparisons of part numbers here since the firewalls are a component of the cabs, which are obviously different between a Sport Trac and 4-door. However, the firewall is the same. If you compare a v8 firewall and a Sport Trac firewall, EVERYTHING mounts in the same place, in the exact same holes. Take something off one and it will bolt right up to the other. Now, there is no way to directly compare the transmission humps in the firewalls like this since nothing actually bolts up in there, but being that I have been under both, with the transmission's removed, I can say pretty much for fact that the firewalls are identical a well.



So this takes care of all 4 sides of the engine bay. So no fitment issues there. The frames are the same width with the same bends/height/mounts as well, so no fitment issues there. The only thing left is the hood, which is actually a little taller on a Trac then on a 4-door explorer because of the "power buldge". Thats all 6 sides, 360 degrees, of the engine bay. So what would be in the way?



What will it take for you to believe this? Will comparing every part and part number do? Do you want pictures and measurements? Or will you only be satisfied if someone actually does this swap? If that is the case, give me a couple years and I'll prove it to you. This swap is in the future plans for my Trac, I just don't see any reason in ripping out a 36k mile drivetrain right now :D





Tonka,

Sorry for hijacking your thread. I have mentioned that this swap is pretty much bolt up in the past several times and I get blown off everytime by naysayers that heard from someone else that this won't work. I have done the research, I own both of the vehicles in question, and this time I am standing my ground. Good luck on your conversion though. Should be one mean Trac when you're done!
 
I think the main reason most people do not try this swap is because no one really wants to remove a perfectly good running engine and replace it. When it gets old enough and worn out enough to replace, more people will consider the swap. I like the v6 in our Tracs. It's really smooth and has plenty of power for anything I'm likely to do with it. If I had the time, a worn out engine, and didn't need the Trac for anything else right now, I might do it myself. After all, if they can put a V8 in an early Ranger, surely someone can put one in a Sport Trac.
 
I put a 350 in a 1971 Vega and a 283 in a 1974 Vega. I think a Chevy small block would fit in a ST.
 
That said, I would venture to bet the master cylinder and the ABS system is different when you compare rear shoes to rear pads.
Click to expand...



Exact same system. I checked the part numbers. Mastercylinder, valves, ABS sensors, modulators, etc...Identical!





Tom
 
For those of you that said a 5.0L wouldn't fit without major mods to the frame/fenders/ inner fenders/ etc.



http://www.rangerpowersports.com/forum/showthread.php?t=164909



Yes, I know it's a ranger. But a ranger had the exact same front frame/suspension/inner fenders/fireall/radiator support/etc as a 95-01 4-door Explorer, Explorer Sports, and 1st gen Sport Tracs.



Now, I know this isn't a bolt in operation like I have said a 5.0L is, but the point is, if they can fit a 4.6L between the inner fenders and frame (even on a 4X4, see pics of blue ranger on above link) then a 5.0L will definately fit. A 4.6L is 28" from the outside of valve cover to valve cover. A 5.0L is only 18"!!!
 
Tom,

I am shocked to be very honest with you. Guess that just goes to show you Ford used what they had simply for cost reasons. Because you and I both know there is a difference in efficiency and performance.



Hmmm
 
Brad-

We KNOW the engine will fit between the rails, that isn't the issue.



To think that a 5.0 is a, and I quote, "pretty much...bolt up" is simply wrong. While you're over at RPS, check out the work needed to fit one in a Ranger. And BTW, the ST is a 4-door Ranger. You're so adamant in saying that it's a bolt in mod, which it isn't. This issue has been hashed, rehashed, and hashed some more well before you came here. Damn, it's been talked about almost as long as this board has been here.



We know the motor will fit physically, it just isn't a weekend job, or to be taken on by those without the proper tools and knowledge...like a welder.
 
Brad,

Beleive what you want and do what you want. I personally feel that our of 12K members here, and over 5 years, nobody has managed to put a V8 in a 2001-2005 Sport Trac.



When you do, then I will be glad to listen to how easy it was, until then I will agree with all the engineers and people who wanted a V8 in their Sport Trac's and agree that neither the 5.0 or the 4.6 Ford V8's will fit in the Sport Trac engine bay.



Caymen.

The parts may have been OEM parts like the ones on the regular Explorers. The fact that someone made a kit of all the OEM parts would tell me someone has done the conversion and identified and solved any problems if there were any. The fact that you bought a kit designed to convert a Sport Trac or other similar rear drum brake Explorers to rear disc brakes would tell me it had been done and was possible.



The Ford engineers did not recommend that someone try to purchase all the parts and do the conversion. Someone who took that risk and did it found out it would work and started selling the parts assembled as a kit.



Knowbody has done that with a Sport Trac V8 conversion kit, and I have not heard of anyone swapping in a V8, and if it was a simple bolt in as Brad thinks it is, there would be a lot of early Sport Trac with V8s by now, yet everyone is silent on that subject.



...Rich
 
Guess that just goes to show you Ford used what they had simply for cost reasons.
Click to expand...



All automakers do that. Nothing new. GM went back to drum brakes with the claim that the drum brakes stop better than disk brakes do.



The parts may have been OEM parts like the ones on the regular Explorers. The fact that someone made a kit of all the OEM parts would tell me someone has done the conversion and identified and solved any problems if there were any. The fact that you bought a kit designed to convert a Sport Trac or other similar rear drum brake Explorers to rear disc brakes would tell me it had been done and was possible.
Click to expand...



The kit was not designed for the Sport Trac, Explorer, or any paricular vehicle. The kit is for a late model 9"/8.8" differential. The kit is completely from a 1996 Explorer. The fasteners, calipers, rotors, pads, etc. are the same parts used on the 1996 Explorer. If I need a new rotor, I ask for a rotor from a 1996 to 2001 Explorer, 2001 to 2003 Explorer Sport, and coincidently a 2003 to 2005 Sport Trac.



The Ford 8.8" differential is also used in those same vehicles.



The parking brake cables from a 2003 Sport Trac are all that is needed to get the parking brake operational. Those same pars could be pulled off the shelf and you would have a perfectly operational rear disk conversion kit.



Remove the axle from a 1996 Explorer, provided the axle ratios are the same, install it and you have the same thing I have.





Tom
 
Caymen,

My point was that there WAS A KIT AVAILABLE for vehicles with the 8.8 axle like the Sport Trac. That gives a lot of evidence that it was possible.



If someone came out with a Kit to put a 4.6 or 5.0 in an Explorer Sport or Sport Trac, then I would be the first to say that it is possible, assuming you don't have to cut any sheet metal or spend a lot of extra money on additional parts that do not fit the V8 or the Sport/Sport Trac engine compartment.



Since I have not heard of anybody offering a bolt in V8 kit, or installing a V8 in the Sport Trac, I can only assume the Ford engineers are right...it won't fit. Yes, there may have been other economic factors that precluded them from putting a V8 in the Sport or Sport Trac, but we will never know all those factors.



...Rich
 
If Ford can put a V8 in a Ford Focus (yes, they offer a crate motor that will do just that), then one can fit in a SportTrac.



That being said, it is a major undertaking to even design such a kit. But, how marketable would such a kit be?
 
I didn't bother to read all the replies, just look for a ranger v8 swap kit, it'll probably be very close to working. Most use the 5.0 explorer pieces anyway. Go with a built 5.0
 
How would that be any different than having a V8 Explorer sitting right next to you? Every par is available to complete the job.





Tom
 
Caymen,

If every part is available to bolt a v8 into the Sport or Sport Trac, we would know about it by now. If it was so easy it would have been done by now and it would not have been kept a secret. As much money and effort that people have spent here on the Sport Trac's out of 12K members, someone would have done it by now.



Many people here have been clammering for Ford to put a V8 in the Sport Trac. It took Ford 6 model years to do it and then only after they changed to the new Explorer chassis. Surely somewhere in the country, someone would have bolted a V8 in the Sport Trac if it could be done.



Putting V8' in Rangers is not new, it's been done for years now, but a Ranger is not a Sport Trac although they once had very similar chassis as did the Explorer.



...Rich
 

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