Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Is there a source out there that shows what the vehicle costs the dealers? I know that Cars.com shows the invoice pricing but I know the dealers pay substantially less then that.
Thanks
Thanks
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New vehicle pricing
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Actually, the dealer profit on a new car is not as much as you think it is. You in the market for a new Ford?
Tom
Tom
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
My aunt used to work for a local dealer and the mark up ranges from 3k to 6k depending - specifically pickups.
And, yes, I'm looking at an F-150 or a Dodge/Chevy/Toyota equivalent in the next 6/12 months. It all depends on the incentives.
I've been leaning towards an F-150 5.4L or the RAM 5.7L Hemi. I'm upgrading my little camper to possibly a 5th wheel and I need the towing power. Both those engines EPA mileage are 14/20 but the Ram has much more horse power and torque. Ram also has the storage in the fenders that no other brands offer - that's useful. BUT - the Ford has the keypad on the door - that I use all the time - AND I love the Ford quality. All the other features can be added to any brands.
I MAY even order one rather then buying one off the lot. Not sure but I want it equipped the way I want. Anyone ever order one (other then commercial ordering for their company)
I take a loooooong time researching before I buy - especially when it's in the $40k range.
Any thoughts are always welcome.
And, yes, I'm looking at an F-150 or a Dodge/Chevy/Toyota equivalent in the next 6/12 months. It all depends on the incentives.
I've been leaning towards an F-150 5.4L or the RAM 5.7L Hemi. I'm upgrading my little camper to possibly a 5th wheel and I need the towing power. Both those engines EPA mileage are 14/20 but the Ram has much more horse power and torque. Ram also has the storage in the fenders that no other brands offer - that's useful. BUT - the Ford has the keypad on the door - that I use all the time - AND I love the Ford quality. All the other features can be added to any brands.
I MAY even order one rather then buying one off the lot. Not sure but I want it equipped the way I want. Anyone ever order one (other then commercial ordering for their company)
I take a loooooong time researching before I buy - especially when it's in the $40k range.
Any thoughts are always welcome.
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Jim parnell
Well-Known Member
not sure I would tow a 5th wheel with a F150, maybe a F250/350. While possible, just don't think the F150 is built strong enough for that kind of towing. You would NOT get anywhere near the EPA estimates when towing. I towed a 10' enclosed motorcycle trailer with my 2000 F150 4x4 5.4L, got 10-12 mpg going 60-65mph. Everyday driving was 18 mpg being REAL REAL easy on the gas, no ac, etc., but I do miss that truck alot and wish I still had it.
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Les
Well-Known Member
I MAY even order one rather then buying one off the lot. Not sure but I want it equipped the way I want. Anyone ever order one (other then commercial ordering for their company)
I ordered my 09 ST...
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
You would NOT get anywhere near the EPA estimates when towing
You're kidding, right? I hope you are cause I'd be a fool to think I'd get the estimated EPA while towing. Pretty funny. Currently my ST gets 18/23 the way I drive but when I tow I get 14 on the highway at 65.
maybe a F250/350
I just don't need that much truck. It'll be my daily driver an I'd only tow the camper a dozen times a year. I know a 250/350 is WAY OVERKILL for me.
Jim parnell
Well-Known Member
Then go for it. You don't mention what size 5th wheel you're considering, only the size truck. If you get 14 mpg towing your current camper with your ST V8, its gotta be a small camper. How much does the 5th wheel under consideration weigh?? How far would you tow the "new" 5th wheel.
No I was not kidding about the mpg when towing. You tow something now and you don't get the EPA estimates when towing, and apparently its a small camper. You seem to be under the impression the F150 5.4L is a powerhouse, it is a strong, durable truck based on my experience having owned one, but I still don't think its built to tow an average size 5th wheel. Maybe a small 5th wheel, but here again, you didn't mention what size/weight of a 5th wheel under consideration. If you provide more info, I might change or retract my statements, but based on the info you provided, you asked for thoughts and got one.
No I was not kidding about the mpg when towing. You tow something now and you don't get the EPA estimates when towing, and apparently its a small camper. You seem to be under the impression the F150 5.4L is a powerhouse, it is a strong, durable truck based on my experience having owned one, but I still don't think its built to tow an average size 5th wheel. Maybe a small 5th wheel, but here again, you didn't mention what size/weight of a 5th wheel under consideration. If you provide more info, I might change or retract my statements, but based on the info you provided, you asked for thoughts and got one.
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Jimp,
You're right. I didn't mention the size of the 5th wheel trailer. I'm just starting to look but the size would be well within the tow rating of the F-150. Towing would be regular weekend (2-3 days) and long weekend (3-5 days) trips. Several hundred miles most of the time. Longer trips possibly once a year. Almost all towing would be flat terrain, Florida mostly.
Actually, yes I am under that impression. You mention that it's a strong, durable truck (based on your experience). I need the strongest, most durable truck in the 150/1500 family. Like I said, in my last post, I don't need a larger truck as a daily driver.
Being that you own (or owned) one, in your opinion, is this a good truck to get - provided I choose a trailer - 5th wheel or otherwise, that is within a towing weight range for an F-150 with the 5.4L engine? Will this truck last a long time and "do the job" or should I go to something like a RAM with the HEMI that I mentioned in an earlier post?
I'm not looking for a retraction of your statement and, by your post, it seems I've upset you - which was not my intent. I was simply expressing my surprise about your statement telling me that I would not get the EPA mileage while towing. I understand that EPA estimates are out the window when towing, I'm more interested in the EPA estimates as a daily driver - as this will be 90% of it's use.
If I upset you, I apologize and will be sure to detail my posts better in the future.
Additionally, what year is/was your F-150? The new, higher EPA estimates are for the newer 2010 trucks. From my research, the EPA has adjusted the estimates to reflect more "real world" gas mileage estimates. All manufacturers of trucks are also doing a better job with the engineering of the engines and drive trains, and getting better mileage then previous trucks for the same class.
I did ask for thoughts of all, and appreciate your thought as to the viability of the F-150.
Les,
What's involved in ordering a truck? Do you have any information on how incentives and discounts work when ordering? Build times? In general, are the "ordered" trucks delivered on time?
Anything else I should know?
Thanks to all for your help.
You don't mention what size 5th wheel you're considering... How much does the 5th wheel under consideration weigh?? How far would you tow the "new" 5th wheel.
You're right. I didn't mention the size of the 5th wheel trailer. I'm just starting to look but the size would be well within the tow rating of the F-150. Towing would be regular weekend (2-3 days) and long weekend (3-5 days) trips. Several hundred miles most of the time. Longer trips possibly once a year. Almost all towing would be flat terrain, Florida mostly.
You seem to be under the impression the F150 5.4L is a powerhouse
Actually, yes I am under that impression. You mention that it's a strong, durable truck (based on your experience). I need the strongest, most durable truck in the 150/1500 family. Like I said, in my last post, I don't need a larger truck as a daily driver.
Being that you own (or owned) one, in your opinion, is this a good truck to get - provided I choose a trailer - 5th wheel or otherwise, that is within a towing weight range for an F-150 with the 5.4L engine? Will this truck last a long time and "do the job" or should I go to something like a RAM with the HEMI that I mentioned in an earlier post?
I'm not looking for a retraction of your statement and, by your post, it seems I've upset you - which was not my intent. I was simply expressing my surprise about your statement telling me that I would not get the EPA mileage while towing. I understand that EPA estimates are out the window when towing, I'm more interested in the EPA estimates as a daily driver - as this will be 90% of it's use.
If I upset you, I apologize and will be sure to detail my posts better in the future.
Additionally, what year is/was your F-150? The new, higher EPA estimates are for the newer 2010 trucks. From my research, the EPA has adjusted the estimates to reflect more "real world" gas mileage estimates. All manufacturers of trucks are also doing a better job with the engineering of the engines and drive trains, and getting better mileage then previous trucks for the same class.
I did ask for thoughts of all, and appreciate your thought as to the viability of the F-150.
Les,
What's involved in ordering a truck? Do you have any information on how incentives and discounts work when ordering? Build times? In general, are the "ordered" trucks delivered on time?
Anything else I should know?
Thanks to all for your help.
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Les
Well-Known Member
Jimmy, it takes about 6 weeks when ordering a vehicle. As far as any incentives or discounts, they are given at the time of delivery. After I had ordered my ST, I read here about a $750 discount within the factory brochure. So I ordered the brochure and presented it at the time of delivery. Not a problem. I did most of my pricing over the internet except with a couple of exceptions. One, was someone I had dealt with at Maroone Ford in Pompano, and the other was to get pricing at Plantation Ford. I know you have/had a connection there, so that might be helpful. They were less than helpful regarding ordering a vehicle and were more interested in selling their stock, of one. I was trading in a vehicle so I shopped that at the same time. Maroone provided the best price.
Good Luck...
Good Luck...
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Les,
As always, thanks for the information. I'm still a way's away from the process but, as I mentioned, I do lots of research before I purchase.
As always, thanks for the information. I'm still a way's away from the process but, as I mentioned, I do lots of research before I purchase.
Jim parnell
Well-Known Member
If you want or have to stay in the F150/1500 size truck, I think the frontal area on a 5th wheel TT will generate too much wind drag, and in turn put too much strain on the F150 size truck. While the weight of the 5th wheel might be within the towing capacities, the wind drag/resistance will be high. You will end up wearing the truck out much sooner than you want. If you go with a low-profile TT, then it may work for you, especialy with the distances you mention. You are asking too much from the truck IMO for the distances you indicate.
I see numerous landscaping services here in TN using F250 size trucks to tow 2 commercial grade mowers & related equipment as their daily load including the trailer is ~2500 lbs. They buy the F250 for a reason, its' built to tow that day in/day out. The services I see with F150 pulling basicaly the same load, the rear is squating down, they don't maintain speed on hills (not a concern in FL), etc. Look around in FL and what do the lawn services use down their to tow their equipment. The difference in frontal drag between the two examples is hugh (5th wheel vs mowers) but the weight could be somewhat in the same ball park. you could get away with it for a while, but you will wear the truck out sooner that expected, or have higher/increased maintanence issues/costs, etc., on a F150 when you work it too hard for extended periods of time.
I had a 2000 F150 4x4 Lariet, auto. I never towed a TT with it, but for a short distance (<50 miles) on a regular basis, it would handle it. Towing a TT the distances you mention above, you will wear the truck out sooner than you want or expect, will be disappointed in the overall performance of the truck, and in turn be looking for something bigger.
The way EPA estimates are caluculated did change, how accurate, meh, who knows, everybody drives differently. I can drive my wifes Mazda 5 4 banger and get 29 mpg on the hwy, she only gets 27. Same roads, same weight, etc. She prefers to get up to speed quicker than I do, I just like to see how high I can get the mpg's as a little game while driving.
I see numerous landscaping services here in TN using F250 size trucks to tow 2 commercial grade mowers & related equipment as their daily load including the trailer is ~2500 lbs. They buy the F250 for a reason, its' built to tow that day in/day out. The services I see with F150 pulling basicaly the same load, the rear is squating down, they don't maintain speed on hills (not a concern in FL), etc. Look around in FL and what do the lawn services use down their to tow their equipment. The difference in frontal drag between the two examples is hugh (5th wheel vs mowers) but the weight could be somewhat in the same ball park. you could get away with it for a while, but you will wear the truck out sooner that expected, or have higher/increased maintanence issues/costs, etc., on a F150 when you work it too hard for extended periods of time.
I had a 2000 F150 4x4 Lariet, auto. I never towed a TT with it, but for a short distance (<50 miles) on a regular basis, it would handle it. Towing a TT the distances you mention above, you will wear the truck out sooner than you want or expect, will be disappointed in the overall performance of the truck, and in turn be looking for something bigger.
The way EPA estimates are caluculated did change, how accurate, meh, who knows, everybody drives differently. I can drive my wifes Mazda 5 4 banger and get 29 mpg on the hwy, she only gets 27. Same roads, same weight, etc. She prefers to get up to speed quicker than I do, I just like to see how high I can get the mpg's as a little game while driving.
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Interesting comments that I hadn't thought about.
The 5th wheel issue is mute at this point. Based on some of your and others comments, my wife and I talked this weekend and decided that a 5th wheel would probably be bigger then we really need. In an earlier post - several weeks back, we were looking at a 27' trailer with an empty weight of around 5,400 pounds. Looks like that's the way we'll probably go. We really like that model. Look for a post titled "Possible new camper later this year"
I really wanted a toy hauler but decided against it. We have 2 12' kayaks, 2 bikes and will be getting an ATV soon as well. I figure the bikes can go in the trailer, Kayaks on the truck roof rack and the ATV in the bed.
Let's see, Trailer = 5400 lbs
Kayaks = 100 lbs total
ATV = 600-800 lbs.
Misc camping stuff - 100-200 lbs
Grand Total = 6,500 lbs (max)
I haven't looked at the 250's at all because of the higher entry cost and larger truck size. I have no idea what the EPA mileage estimates are but it's worth looking at. Again, I am really looking at the truck as a daily driver more then a tow vehicle. Towing will be very minimal.
I guess, my real problem is that I just don't see myself in such a big truck. I have several friends with the 250/350 trucks and they are monsters (compared to my ST) They bitch about the gas mileage too. I'll be towing so little, I don't know if I'll be happy with the mileage the larger trucks get. By the way, does anyone know what these larger trucks get for mileage? Ford website doesn't say.
Sounds like I drive like you, not real quick starts and I get every bit of the EPA estimates and lot's of times more. I always watch the tachometer and pay attention to the shifting. Again, like you, my wife gets lower mileage for the same reasons you explained.
Oh, regarding the trucks in my area that tow, I see about 50/50 with 150 vs 250. The 150's do sag more. The truck/trailer combination would definitely have load weight distribution/anti-sway bars.
Decisions... decisions!
Lastly, I have to add that these posts are the reason I love this site! I love getting different opinions from folks - makes me think about other options that I wouldn't have considered on my own.
You guys ROCK!!:banana:
The 5th wheel issue is mute at this point. Based on some of your and others comments, my wife and I talked this weekend and decided that a 5th wheel would probably be bigger then we really need. In an earlier post - several weeks back, we were looking at a 27' trailer with an empty weight of around 5,400 pounds. Looks like that's the way we'll probably go. We really like that model. Look for a post titled "Possible new camper later this year"
I really wanted a toy hauler but decided against it. We have 2 12' kayaks, 2 bikes and will be getting an ATV soon as well. I figure the bikes can go in the trailer, Kayaks on the truck roof rack and the ATV in the bed.
Let's see, Trailer = 5400 lbs
Kayaks = 100 lbs total
ATV = 600-800 lbs.
Misc camping stuff - 100-200 lbs
Grand Total = 6,500 lbs (max)
I haven't looked at the 250's at all because of the higher entry cost and larger truck size. I have no idea what the EPA mileage estimates are but it's worth looking at. Again, I am really looking at the truck as a daily driver more then a tow vehicle. Towing will be very minimal.
I guess, my real problem is that I just don't see myself in such a big truck. I have several friends with the 250/350 trucks and they are monsters (compared to my ST) They bitch about the gas mileage too. I'll be towing so little, I don't know if I'll be happy with the mileage the larger trucks get. By the way, does anyone know what these larger trucks get for mileage? Ford website doesn't say.
The way EPA estimates are caluculated did change, how accurate, meh, who knows, everybody drives differently. I can drive my wifes Mazda 5 4 banger and get 29 mpg on the hwy, she only gets 27. Same roads, same weight, etc. She prefers to get up to speed quicker than I do, I just like to see how high I can get the mpg's as a little game while driving.
Sounds like I drive like you, not real quick starts and I get every bit of the EPA estimates and lot's of times more. I always watch the tachometer and pay attention to the shifting. Again, like you, my wife gets lower mileage for the same reasons you explained.
Oh, regarding the trucks in my area that tow, I see about 50/50 with 150 vs 250. The 150's do sag more. The truck/trailer combination would definitely have load weight distribution/anti-sway bars.
Decisions... decisions!
Lastly, I have to add that these posts are the reason I love this site! I love getting different opinions from folks - makes me think about other options that I wouldn't have considered on my own.
You guys ROCK!!:banana:
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justjimmy,
You can try edmunds.com and kbb.com (Kelly Blue Book) for new and used car prices.
American-card dealers like Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc usually have about a 3% Hold-back that the manufacturer will pay to the dealer after the car is sold.. Since most people who buy new cars do some of their homework and know about what the dealer's cost is. The Hold-back is the reserve profit the dealer knows he will get. Foriegn car dealers do not have this Hold-back (kick back) so their cars tend to be slightly higher for comparable cars.
Dealers also will deal more with less popular vehicles just to get them off the lot, but the more popular the vehicle is, the less they are willing to deal because they know people will pay more for those vehicles. (The old rule of supply and demand).
...Rich
You can try edmunds.com and kbb.com (Kelly Blue Book) for new and used car prices.
American-card dealers like Ford, GM, Chrysler, etc usually have about a 3% Hold-back that the manufacturer will pay to the dealer after the car is sold.. Since most people who buy new cars do some of their homework and know about what the dealer's cost is. The Hold-back is the reserve profit the dealer knows he will get. Foriegn car dealers do not have this Hold-back (kick back) so their cars tend to be slightly higher for comparable cars.
Dealers also will deal more with less popular vehicles just to get them off the lot, but the more popular the vehicle is, the less they are willing to deal because they know people will pay more for those vehicles. (The old rule of supply and demand).
...Rich
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Richard - good to know. Thanks
David Ponder
Well-Known Member
Jimmy,
I have a good friend that has a 2004 F150 FX4. (With the 5.4L) He has pulled an older fully loaded 4 horse trailer with it from Kansas City to Montana twice and it did just fine. The second trip he had the bed loaded down too.
This trailer was not a 5th wheel, but it was pretty big, and had 4 horses plus gear in it. I cant say from personal experience, just what he told me. Obviously he could sure tell there was some weight back there, but he said the truck did just fine.
Dave
I have a good friend that has a 2004 F150 FX4. (With the 5.4L) He has pulled an older fully loaded 4 horse trailer with it from Kansas City to Montana twice and it did just fine. The second trip he had the bed loaded down too.
This trailer was not a 5th wheel, but it was pretty big, and had 4 horses plus gear in it. I cant say from personal experience, just what he told me. Obviously he could sure tell there was some weight back there, but he said the truck did just fine.
Dave
Jim parnell
Well-Known Member
stop by the dealers and the brochures should have the epa estimates somewhere. Since the F250 and larger are not under the corporate mpg requirements (I think), they don't brag about those mpg's. Have read where a diesel can get decent mpg's, comparable to the 5.4L, but you have the upfront cost, higher fuel costs, maintanence, etc., but if you need the power and torque to get the job done, then I guess its worth. If I were interested in a TT, I would probably look at one of the "motorhomes", not the big $500K ones, the ones based on the extended E250 van frame, some have diesels I think, maybe not. It's not a DD, but you could keep your ST and have a camper as well that could tow all the toys. I don't know how the $$ would work out but would probably be in the same ball park by the time you consider a new truck, and TT.
Comparing a ST to a F250 is like comparing apples to watermelon, completely different. The ST is an personal vehicle that can tow, while the F250 is a tow/work vehicle that can carry people. Lots of people around have F250's as their DD, but they do some farming on the side, or haul horses, tractors, mowers, etc., on a reglar basis. There are some that just want the F250 cause its BIG. Good luck in your search.
Comparing a ST to a F250 is like comparing apples to watermelon, completely different. The ST is an personal vehicle that can tow, while the F250 is a tow/work vehicle that can carry people. Lots of people around have F250's as their DD, but they do some farming on the side, or haul horses, tractors, mowers, etc., on a reglar basis. There are some that just want the F250 cause its BIG. Good luck in your search.
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
I found that the 2011 F-250 with the 6.2L gas and 6 speed tranny gets 16/21. That's better then the 5.4L gas 2010 F-150. 2011 F-150's aren't out yet.
Hmmmm
Hmmmm
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Jim parnell
Well-Known Member
But you don't need a F 250 remember?? :bwahaha:
Jimmy Lavoie
Well-Known Member
Yeah - but you got me curious and I had to look!
you troublemaker!! :cheeky:
Because of YOU, I may be gettin' an F-250 WITH the 5th WHEEL after all!! (kidding)
you troublemaker!! :cheeky:
Because of YOU, I may be gettin' an F-250 WITH the 5th WHEEL after all!! (kidding)
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Dan Long
Well-Known Member
Jimmy,
I'd SERIOUSLY consider the F250 for your towing needs. I've got an 06 F150 5.4 2wd that I've been towing a 6x12 tandem axle cargo trailer with lately, and believe me, I know its back there when hooked up. The trailer is about 1800 lbs. empty, but I'd estimate it to be about 3500 lbs. when loaded. I towed it from my house in FL to KY, then was about to head to IL with it and my tranny crapped out on me. I can't say it was definitely related, as the truck has 110K on it now, but it was awfully odd timing.
The trailer tows really nice, and I didn't even have a brake controller until yesterday, but it really worked the truck. Part of the issue is probably the height of the trailer (6' interior) and the lowered stance of my truck (2/5" drop) with its camper shell on the back exposing a large flat frontal area of the trailer. Regardless, I wish I had the 250 when hauling it. Anything bigger, or towing more regularly like you'll be doing, I'm willing to bet you'll regret the F150.
I'd SERIOUSLY consider the F250 for your towing needs. I've got an 06 F150 5.4 2wd that I've been towing a 6x12 tandem axle cargo trailer with lately, and believe me, I know its back there when hooked up. The trailer is about 1800 lbs. empty, but I'd estimate it to be about 3500 lbs. when loaded. I towed it from my house in FL to KY, then was about to head to IL with it and my tranny crapped out on me. I can't say it was definitely related, as the truck has 110K on it now, but it was awfully odd timing.
The trailer tows really nice, and I didn't even have a brake controller until yesterday, but it really worked the truck. Part of the issue is probably the height of the trailer (6' interior) and the lowered stance of my truck (2/5" drop) with its camper shell on the back exposing a large flat frontal area of the trailer. Regardless, I wish I had the 250 when hauling it. Anything bigger, or towing more regularly like you'll be doing, I'm willing to bet you'll regret the F150.
