O.T.: Bush commutes Libby prison sentence

[Bill V]

Bill-E--Clinton's pardon record is irrelevant to the discussion of what happened to Libby. If you're neighbor commits a serious crime, and gets away with it, that doesn't give you the right to commit the same crime. (And yes, I realize that commuting sentences and/or pardoning is not a "crime", but it is, to say the least, morally questionable.)



The only way Clinton's pardon record is relevant at all to current politics is with regard to his wife's presidential campaign--but that is also not germaine to this discussion about Libby.

 

[Johnny O]

Couple things, not that I intend to excuse wrongdoing by anybody. Hillary is railing about this, somehow conveniently forgetting that Bill gave a number of pardons for obviously political reasons. The Hasidics to get Hillary Jewish support, the FALN terrorists to get Hillary Puerto Rican support, and Mark Rich for past and future campaign contributions and likely because he boffed the attractive Mrs. Rich to close the deal. Libby was on trial for a crime that was determined not to be a crime. A police state is when you have so many laws that you can always convict someone of something. Further, if this type of witch hunt is allowed to continue, in the future both Democrat and Republican administrations will have a hard time finding good people who want to work for them. It ain't worth going to jail.

A smaller example for sure, but I have been, and am on, the board of directors of assorted groups and/or companies and every one of them carries directors' liability insurance or else they won't find anyone who will want to be on the board.

 

[Bill V]

Libby was on trial for a crime that was determined not to be a crime.

I missed that news story--when was it determined that perjury isn't a crime?

 

[Johnny O]

I was talking about the original Valerie Plame issue. Libby was on trial for perjury during testimony in the Plame case, where apparently there was no crime committed or else Richard Armitage (the leaker) would have been convicted. TrainTrac covered all that pretty good already.

Libby would have done far better to pull a Hillary and simply say "I don't remember" to all questions.

 

[Bill Ellis]

Bill V..........it is relevent in that the President has constitutional authority to pardon and commute sentances for any reason or no reason at all. Those who wish to complain about Bush should have also been complaining about Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, et. al. The whole Valerie Plame thing was bogus from the start regardless of which side you are on. No laws were broken in revealing her occupation so there never should have been an investigation.

 

[Bill V]

Those who wish to complain about Bush should have also been complaining about Clinton, Bush, Reagan, Carter, Ford, Nixon, et. al.

Not necessarily. Many of those who wish to complain about Bush were too young to complain coherently about the actions of many/any past presidents at the time they were inappropriately granting pardons/commutations. And to do so now, when the acts are in the distant past, is irrelevant.

Libby was on trial for perjury during testimony in the Plame case, where apparently there was no crime committed or else Richard Armitage (the leaker) would have been convicted.

Wrong. A crime was clearly committed. There just wasn't sufficient evidence available to convict any particular individual (other than Libby, for perjuring himself during the investigation). By your standard (that if no one is convicted for a crime, no crime was committed), Nicole Brown Simpson was never murdered, as OJ was never convicted (nor was anyone else).

 

[Bill Ellis]

So I'll ask again...how in the world does any of this affect any of us? It's not hard to tell who's very partisan here. Guess it's good advice not to discuss religion or politics with closed minded people.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Bill-E, you don't have to ask me how it affects me. I stated in post #3 this doesn't impact me in the least. People get their panties in a twist and take their eye off the ball over the most meaningless things.



TJR

 

[Bill V]

It affects us in that we have leaders who, through their actions, are giving the appearance that they consider political favors to be more important than justice handed down by the courts.



I'll grant that this is the full extent of the impact on any of us, and as such, it isn't much. But the same could be said about 99.999% of the court cases in our judicial system. Does that somehow mean that we shouldn't bother paying attention to anything going on in this country, or speak up when we feel an injustice is being done?

Guess it's good advice not to discuss religion or politics with closed minded people.

But that would mean that not only couldn't you talk to anyone on this board, but you couldn't even talk to yourself...

 

[Thomas Rogers]

Bill V,



From what I have heard about the case it seems like more, political witch hunting (like Whitewater and Lewinsky-gate before). I have really no time for it. If I got my panties in a twist on "who did what, when" over such witch hunts then I would be wasting my time and energy. I actually have a pretty low opinion of those that "snap" tight to their party position and start to rabble rouse. They and their kind, IMHO, are what is MOSTLY wrong with this country.



TJR

 

[Bill V]

From what I have heard about the case it seems like more, political witch hunting (like Whitewater and Lewinsky-gate before).

I'd be prone to agree with you, if the judge that determined the original sentence for Libby was a Clinton (or other Dem) appointee. But the fact that a Bush appointee gave him 30 months is what gave it some credibility in my eyes, and made the Bush commutation more suspicious.

I actually have a pretty low opinion of those that "snap" tight to their party position and start to rabble rouse. They and their kind, IMHO, are what is MOSTLY wrong with this country.

You'll get no disagreement from me on any of that!

 

[Bill Ellis]

I'll admit, I like to stir these kinds of pots. I find it quite amusing as to how much some people can get worked up over these things. Now what's really important are my plans for tonight's recreation...bike ride and fireworks. Next, our two day trip for a bike ride in western Missouri. What goes on with the politicos in Washington is far removed from my concerns. Just don't raise my taxes and, in general, leave me alone.

 

[Rick Kent]

They and their kind, IMHO, are what is MOSTLY wrong with this country.

I thought it was unions and illegal immigrants.

I'll admit, I like to stir these kinds of pots

Me too.

 

[Johnny O]

Point being that the trial itself is flawed because the special prosecutor knew from the beginning who the leaker was (not Libby or Cheney) and that person (Armitage) was never charged with anything.

So Bill V, why is there a Libby trial at all unless it's a political witch hunt? They didn't go after the actual leaker who leaked info that was not illegal to leak. The original trial should not have occurred in the first place, or at the very least been quickly dismissed based on the actual evidence that Valerie Plame was not a covert agent at that time, or that they should have gone after Armitage instead of White House staff.

My work here is finished. It's Tuesday, tee time in an hour.

 

[Bill V]

If it's all a political witch hunt, why did a Bush-appointed judge give him a 30 month sentence? And why did Bush only commute his sentence, rather than pardon him?



Regardless of whether the trial should have occurred or not (and I don't know enough about the case to have any opinion on it either way, I honestly don't know how much of that was 'witch hunt' and how much was legitimate), Libby was required to tell the truth while under oath. Perjuring yourself under oath is a crime, regardless of whether the investigation in which your testifying should be occurring or not. He did, that's why there was a Libby trial, and he deserved to serve his sentence for doing so.

 

[TomT]

It affects us in that we have leaders who, through their actions, are giving the appearance that they consider political favors to be more important than justice handed down by the courts.

You act like this is something new. This is what American politics has become. And it started long before Bush. Republicans-Democrats, they're all the same.

 

[Rodger Tellefson]

JohnnyO, I definately was Bush and / or Cheney that outed Valerie Plame.



Bill V, The full parden is comming just closer to the end of Bush's term in office.

 

[Johnny O]

JohnnyO, I definately was Bush and / or Cheney that outed Valerie Plame.

Rodger, I think you're missing a few words or letters so I'm not sure I understand what you mean but the person who outed Valerie Plame was Richard Armitage, the Deputy Secretary of State. He has admitted as much and after he did, journalists Bob Woodward and Robert Novak confirmed that he was the source although they did not want to reveal that prior to Armitage admitting it himself.

Again, at that point Ms. Plame had a desk job at the CIA HQ and was no longer an undercover agent, although being "outed" would I suppose preclude her from doing it again. Ergo, no crime was committed by outing her, or else Armitage would be on trial and he is not.

 

[Bill V]

You act like this is something new. This is what American politics has become. And it started long before Bush. Republicans-Democrats, they're all the same.

Actually, no--I'm not acting like it's anything new. I just don't think we should be any less upset about it just because it's happened in the past. Murder is nothing new--does that mean we should not care when another one is committed?



Nor am I saying that this is by any means a Republican-only transgression. It's just that they're the current transgressors.

 

[Rodger Tellefson]

JohnnyO, I was late when I posted. What I meant was that Bush & Cheney were definately behind the outing of Plame even though they did not directly do it. They are the only ones that have the power to declassify that kind of information. Why else would Libby get a "Get out of jail free pass"? The powers that be are clearing their conscience so that Libby would not take the fall for doing his job of creating a smoke screen to hide the guilty parties.