O.T.: The IRS Has a New Weapon: Your Tax Pro

Ford SportTrac Forum

Help Support Ford SportTrac Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
This law is shameful.



First, the government engineers the IRS regulations so that it's impossible for the average citizen to hold politicians accountable for the true nature of tax code changes.



The private sector develops a massive tax advice industry to combat the abusiveness of the Internal Revenue code, the government passes a law turning that industry into a host of potential government informants.



Wake up folks. "The man" has got his boot on our necks and is increasing the downward pressure every day.
 
The fair tax ONLY applies to NEW stuff. You buy a used car, used house, used boat, used furnature, used clothing, and used anything else, you can live a good life and never pay one penny in tax's.



That is a reality.



Oh, before you say anything about tax's on food, the fair tax includes a monthly prebate check based off the poverty level of a rebate of tax's you would pay at the poverty level.



The prices of goods will go down and American corporations will be able to compete in a global market.





Tom
 
The fair tax ONLY applies to NEW stuff.

The versions of this that I had seen didn't have such a provision. I suspect that when it comes to proposals on something like this, there are hundreds to thousands of them--kind of like opinions and a$$holes, everyone has one. So yes, I can see that some of them may have such a loophole (and I don't mean that in a negative way) on used/new. It would make the whole "new/used" definition rather contentious, though. "OK, sir, here's your bill--$25,000 for the car, plus $5000 for the tax." "But there's no tax on it." "Yes there is, sir--it's a new car." "No, it's used--I saw someone take it for a test drive earlier." etc. etc. etc....
 
"OK, sir, here's your bill--$25,000 for the car, plus $5000 for the tax." "But there's no tax on it." "Yes there is, sir--it's a new car." "No, it's used--I saw someone take it for a test drive earlier." etc. etc. etc....

The law already defines a used car as one that has been titled. Dealer demos are sold as new cars, albeit with a discount since they have more than normal "new car" miles on them. Occasionally an old "new" car will show up for sale with like 25 miles on it because the dealer parked it in the back when new and kept it for 30 years or whatever. Legally it is still a new car because the dealer never sent in any paperwork to the state to transfer the title from the dealer. Laws may vary by state, but that's generally how it works. I used to sell cars. :cool:



Oh, before you say anything about tax's on food, the fair tax includes a monthly prebate check based off the poverty level of a rebate of tax's you would pay at the poverty level.

I think that poor people do not pay their fair share of taxes. Especially given that they tend to use more taxpayer-supported government services than do non-poor people. Paying taxes would be a powerful incentive to get off their ass and get to work.*



Rules for success in life:

1. Stay in school.

2. Do not make babies until you are married.

3. Do not get married until you have a job.

Any survey you look at will tell you this. Cultural differences and values be damned.



*I have no problem helping out people who are genuinely disabled and cannot work. Being too fat to leave the house doesn't count.
 
Rules for success in life:

1. Stay in school.

2. Do not make babies until you are married.

3. Do not get married until you have a job.

I'll agree those are good guidelines--but I hate it when people try to make things like that into "rules", as if a) breaking any of them means that your life will be a failure, and b) following all of them will assure you success. We all know neither of those are true.
 
For sure, but the point is that breaking them greatly decreases your odds of success and following them greatly increases said odds. Where I live, time was that anybody could stumble out of high school with a diploma or not, get a mill job, and earn a decent middle-class living for the rest of their life. Today there are no mills and ya gotta have skills these days and for some people that's too much work. FWIW, one of my summer jobs during college was swinging a shovel and hooking cranes in a steel mill, so I know whereof I speak.



af130f70671555832a761fe19345ca5b.jpg
 
Bill, some people genuinely prefer living life by tight guidelines. Some parents raise their kids with strict guidelines of what's acceptable at each stage in life. For some folks, those kinds of rules are handy, comforting, and even essential. For still others, they would be a good prescription.



Like you, I prefer boundless situations where you evaluate choices based on the circumstances, but not everyone can handle that.



As for the Fair Tax, the law and lots of supporting FAQ info is available at FairTax.org. When discussing "The Fair Tax," it is specific to the info found there. Other flat, VAT, or national sales tax proposals are not equivalent. Shoot it down on it's lack of merit, if you can. Don't confuse it with anything else.
 
Well, one thing about such a tax, if it's applicable to new items but not used, is that it would definitely have a significant impact on how people shop for and sell items that are typically available in both new and used conditions. Right now, a new vehicle takes a significant drop in value (compared to what the purchaser paid for it) when it gets driven off the lot. Now, it might not--people wanting to sell a six-month-old vehicle, for example, that might previously have been able to get, say, 80% of the purchase value, would now potentially be able to ask more, by pointing out that even if the buyer pays 90% or even 100%, they're still saving considerably, as they're getting a "like-new" car without having to pay the significant sales tax. Not saying that this is good, bad, or other--but it would certainly have an impact.



Rich, I just took a look at that website, and looked at their PDF on Fair Tax fundamentals--and one significant problem with their assertions comes to mind immediately: such a system will cause short term havoc on the entire real estate system, but will likely in the long term end up with a significant increase in the cost of home purchasing, to the point where it consumes most of the money that isn't otherwise spent on taxes.



The problem, that they don't seem to take into consideration, is supply and demand. Let's say that the Fair Tax is implemented, and let's also say that, as that PDF suggests, it results in the tax burden being reduced for most people. This means that more people have more money in their pockets. Now, let's say that half a dozen of those people are wanting to buy a certain house, that in today's market and tax system is worth $230K, and for all of them, that $230K is the limit of what they can practically afford in today's system. But in this new tax system, they now have more money left from their taxes--and a new house is the single most likely place that people are going to be willing to spend that money. So these people will bid against each other, using that extra money they're getting from their tax breaks, and thus will push the price of that house upward significantly by trying to outbid each other. I'm not sure how high--but based on the fact that the site's PDF says that the overall lifetime cost of a $230K home would be $123K less--over 50% of the home's original cost--and this difference doesn't take into account the tax reductions the buyers would receive in other parts of their lives that could be applied to home purchases, I wouldn't be surprised if the new-found affluence caused by the fair tax would cause those home prices to increase 50-100%, as people would now have that much available to invest in the cost of their home. Their chart in the PDF, showing how much cheaper a $230K home would be under the Fair Tax than it is under the current tax is not a fair comparison, as there's no way a $230K home under the current sytem would cost $230K in the new one. This is why home prices have so significantly increased the last ten years or so, and are now plateauing or falling--they increased because the income that people had available to spend on a home increased, and they are plateauing and fallin because the income that people have available to spend on a home now has plateaued or fallen.



In either system, people who are in the same income level still need to have their dollars compete with the dollars of others in their same income level for the items they wish to purchase. I can't imagine that the "Fair Tax" is going to somehow convince people that they need to save the money they gain through the tax change, rather than spend it. And when everyone in the group receives a similar increase in spending ability, that increases demand--which in turn increases price. And when people pay that increased price, the net gain to those people will likely end up being just about--zero. Either I pay it to the government, or I pay it to the
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Bill, think about the costs saved on the building of the home:



- FICA (SSN, medicare, medicaid) for the people on payroll who build the home

- FUT for the people on payroll who build the home

- Federal income taxes for the builder of the home (contractors AND sub-contractors)

- All of the embedded taxes in the wood, nails, paint, plumbing supplies, electrical supplies, landscaping, etc.



The cost to build the house could easily drop by 20 to 30%. The payroll taxes alone account for a 10% reduction in labor costs.



Granted, the transition might be messy. But the current tax code is so anti-freedom, anti-privacy, and anti-growth, it would be worth the hiccup during the changeover.







 
Bill V,



More money in people's pocket as always been the recipe for prosperity. And the fairtax puts more money in people's pockets AND increases the tax doles. How can it possibly be bad?



TJR
 
Rich, I won't disagree with any of the "anti-"s you listed. And because of those items alone, I don't oppose it. And I can see how the average person may end up with more money in their pockets. But I don't agree that those people will have more buying power--and therefore, the benefits of such a system are not what their proponents claim they will be. Inflation resulting from the tax change will correct that. Costs increase or decrease to meet demand, and the increase in the number of dollars people have available to them will increase the demand on goods of all types.



You say that the cost to build the house would drop 20 to 30%, and the payroll taxes alone account for a 10% reduction in labor costs. And I don't think that's true. When you reduce the tax, everyone will have more dollars to spend. When these people compete to buy a house, that drives the price up. For everyone--including for workers that build houses. Which will mean that they'll have to earn more to be able to afford to compete with everyone. They'll do so by charging more for construction costs. Etc. etc. etc. Pretty soon, between the total of base costs and of taxes, everyone is paying about the same amount for everything--the only thing that's changed is what portion is base cost and what portion is taxes, which, in the long run to the average person, is irrelevant, as it's all money out of our pocket.



But like I said--because it all comes out pretty much the same, I'm not opposed to the idea of the Fair Tax. I just don't like hearing it hyped as being able to accomplish things that are simply unrealistic.



p.s. Sorry to everyone about the unintentional thread hijacking.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
According to the book, the cost of the things we buy is inflated 20 to 25% HIGHER because of the corporate tax's on everything. The end consumer pays all those tax's. If the price of goods goes down 20%, but will then go up 20% from the new sales tax, we will still have more buying power because I keep all of my paycheck.



Lets take me for example. I make about $900.00/week before tax's. After tax's, it is around $600.00. So I essentially get 300.00 removed from my pocket every single week. Imagine if I get all $900.00 I earned to spend or invest any way I want.



So, lets say I want to buy a new car for $25,000.00.



Would it be easier for me to buy the car with $600.00/week or with $900.00/week?



The price of goods will go down 20% because tax's are no longer embedded into the price of everything we buy.



If we add a 20% sales tax on that item, we are still at the same price, except I have more money in my pocket to buy gas, food, clothing, or even a savings account. Many people could even pay off their bills. Whats a concept?





Tom
 
Last edited by a moderator:
You say that the cost to build the house would drop 20 to 30%, and the payroll taxes alone account for a 10% reduction in labor costs. And I don't think that's true. When you reduce the tax, everyone will have more dollars to spend. When these people compete to buy a house, that drives the price up.



Bill, the flaw in your argument is treating demand as if it is independent of supply.



Why are housing prices dipping in many US markets? Because, when housing prices were recently increasing due to strong demand, the market attracted more supply. Builders built more new homes. People on the fence about selling their home were motived by the higher asking prices. And now we have too much supply and prices are flat or falling in many markets. In the absence of outside (err, government) interference, it self-corrects.



And, you've basically described a sitution where more jobs will be created as the market tries to meet the demand for more housing. Which is why proponents say the Fair Tax is healthy for our economy.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Why are housing prices dipping? It's not the reasons you state. It's far more simple than that--it's because the amount of income available to the average person to spend on a house has plateaued or dropped. They can't afford to be paying more, and so prices can't climb higher. It's as simple as that. If/when people can afford to pay more, they will, and prices will climb. And the cost of building a new house will also climb--even if the construction costs themselves don't increase, the cost of the land to build them on will climb to keep the overall cost competitive with what the increased affluence will allow people to pay. Causing the net effect on the home construction market to be pretty much nil. As you said, it self-corrects.



That's what's misleading about some of the stuff on that FairTax website--it makes it sound like nearly everyone will make more money, but then pretends that that will have no effect on the cost of living.



You know, by their logic, I have an even better way to increase the amount of money everyone has--just have the Federal Reserve declare that as of tomorrow, all US money is worth ten times what it currently is now. Just shift that decimal point one position. Just think of it--everyone's average takehome pay would go up tenfold overnight, you'd have ten times as much money available to buy whatever you'd like, and if you find a quarter on the sidewalk, you just made $2.50! Sounds great, right? But only a fool would believe that if you ran to the grocery store tomorrow, the cost of milk would still be only $5 a gallon, or that gas would only be $3 a gallon. Those prices would obviously also increase tenfold as well. The net effect? People will have no greater buying power than they did before the change. The absolute number of dollars that people have is irrelevant--it's the ratio of the quantity of those dollars to the cost of living that matters. And on a grand scale, if the quantity of dollars available increases, the cost of living will typically correct itself via competition to keep that ratio pretty constant.



Or at least that's what my brain is saying right now. But then again, it's 3 f@#$ing a.m.--so I have no idea how correct anything is that my brain may spit out at this time. :)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Granted, the transition might be messy. But the current tax code is so anti-freedom, anti-privacy, and anti-growth, it would be worth the hiccup during the changeover.

If you had people bidding up the price of houses, well, everybody has more money in their pocket. That whole level playing field thing. The first thought I had was that the Tax Reform Act of 1986 roiled the real estate markets for a few years too because money-losing real estate investments no longer made sense tax-wise. If it didn't make you money, there was no point in having it. In the end, everything balanced out once the markets adapted.

It still took my dad about a year at the height of the frenzy to sell his Florida condo, beachfront even, at slightly less than the appraised value (which was still a hell of a lot of money :cool:).

Real estate and the stock market are about the purest examples of supply and demand there is.

Real estate is slowing down in parts of the country because the prices got too high in parts of the country, so less people buy. Ergo, the prices come back down.

Supply is one half, demand is the other. Housing prices where I live in western PA are relatively cheap because there are less people living here every year, not more. Sellers are just happy to unload a house for what they can get. $50,000 will buy you something perfectly acceptable, $100k will get you something really nice. The problem is where are you going to work to make enough to pay for said house? Which is why people have been moving away for the last 20 years. From my house I can see 11 other houses for sale, and been for sale for a while. It's not so much price as the fact that there just aren't many people here who need a house.

If you live someplace where people want to live, then houses will cost more.

If you live someplace where people don't want to live, then houses will cost less.

I'm told there are 12,000 abandoned houses in Detroit. That tells me there ain't any housing bubble there.
 
Bill V,



You missed something. The value of everything will essentially remain the same, even though tax's will be paid on those items, but you and I will be getting the gross on our paychecks and not the net.



That alone is giving EVERYONE a raise and we will ALL have more disposable income.





Tom
 
BillV, I think there is a general flaw in your argument. Your argument implies a simplistic model and some simple assumptions. One assumption is that since everyone has more money all products will increase proportionally based on everyone's ability to pay more for their goods and services. That's simply not realistic. Sure. on average, increases in income track inflation, and cost of living and product costs track inflation, but that's simply not the case for big ticket items like cars and houses, which typically swing in a much wilder variation depending on the overall economy and the local marketplace. Furthermore, there are a wide variety of goods and services that actually drop in price, year after year, and when inflation is considered, they drop rather drastically. Take a look at a TV, or a computer, circa 1984 vs today...priced considering inflation.



So, I think your basic assumption is off. If people had another 10 or 15% disposable income tomorrow, we wouldn't see an average increase in COL by 10 or 15%...anymore than we saw a $500 COL increase when the Bush tax rebate of 2002 came out (or whenever that was).



TJR
 
TJR, TVs and computers have experienced price drops based primarily on technological advances, both in the items themselves and their manufacturing techniques. This is why they fall outside of this model.



Caymen--when you comment about prices remaining the same, but everyone getting a raise and an increase in disposable income: That's the kool-aid talking.
 
BillV, much of what we buy decreases year after year...and big ticket items track the local economy and marketplace moreso that what people are able to pay...that's my ascertion anyway.



TJR
 
Bill,



Please explain.



The market dictates the price. When there is competition, the price will go down. If it costs less to produce something, the price will go down to get more of the market.



The airlines, cars, food, clothing, etc. all opperate that way.



When a corporation can make something for 20% less, the price will go down. When the price goes down, the tax's will fill up that drop, but I get taxed ONLY when I spend my money.



Elaborate on your comment. Why is this not possible?





Tom
 

Latest posts

Top