Who pays the fees, if you lose the case?
Tom
OT: Anyone use the "Lemon Law"...
- Thread starter Thomas Rogers
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Who pays the fees, if you lose the case?
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
The law firm eats the cost if they lose. I pay nothing, regardless. I have that in writing.
PA makes it a no brainer. The company specializes in lemon law and only takes cases they are assured to win. PA lemon law has attorney fees paid by the losing party.
They say I have an "open and shut" case. The only question is what form of settlement get pursued and agreed to.
When I get all the paper work, before I file, I am going to the dealer ONE last time and give them my intentions and one last chance. IF they are willing to buy back the vehicle and put me in a new, leased 07 of same make and model that doesn't exhibit the problem, at same monthly cost to me, I would be willing to not pursue the claim. In other words, if they would buy out the lease and start the clock on a new lease with no origination fees, I would be happy.
TJR
PA makes it a no brainer. The company specializes in lemon law and only takes cases they are assured to win. PA lemon law has attorney fees paid by the losing party.
They say I have an "open and shut" case. The only question is what form of settlement get pursued and agreed to.
When I get all the paper work, before I file, I am going to the dealer ONE last time and give them my intentions and one last chance. IF they are willing to buy back the vehicle and put me in a new, leased 07 of same make and model that doesn't exhibit the problem, at same monthly cost to me, I would be willing to not pursue the claim. In other words, if they would buy out the lease and start the clock on a new lease with no origination fees, I would be happy.
TJR
TJR,
I am not putting you down for doing what you are doing. I can not blame you for taking the steps you are taking. I just have a few questions...
The PA lemon law is pretty specific in what it refers to a lemon as.
The Pennsylvania Lemon Law applies to new cars that suffer a nonconformity; a defect or condition, which substantially impairs the use, value or safety; that cannot be repaired after three attempts by an authorized manufacturer's dealership. This nonconformity must first occur within the first 12 months or 12,000 miles, whichever comes first. The Pennsylvania Lemon Law also applies to vehicles that are in the shop for repair thirty (30) or more calendar days during the first year.
Honestly, it sounds like you really dont have a case since according to the Pennsylvania Lemon Law, your vehicle is not a lemon.
Could I be reading the law wrong?
Just to make sure you understand, I am not disagreeing with you. I hope it works out in your favor, I just don't know how you case can be tried as a lemon law case.
Tom
I am not putting you down for doing what you are doing. I can not blame you for taking the steps you are taking. I just have a few questions...
The PA lemon law is pretty specific in what it refers to a lemon as.
The Pennsylvania Lemon Law applies to new cars that suffer a nonconformity; a defect or condition, which substantially impairs the use, value or safety; that cannot be repaired after three attempts by an authorized manufacturer's dealership. This nonconformity must first occur within the first 12 months or 12,000 miles, whichever comes first. The Pennsylvania Lemon Law also applies to vehicles that are in the shop for repair thirty (30) or more calendar days during the first year.
Honestly, it sounds like you really dont have a case since according to the Pennsylvania Lemon Law, your vehicle is not a lemon.
Could I be reading the law wrong?
Just to make sure you understand, I am not disagreeing with you. I hope it works out in your favor, I just don't know how you case can be tried as a lemon law case.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I looked at the statute, and I have a non-conformity that surfaced prior to 12K miles and within the first year, and that non-conformity hasn't been fixed in 3 or more service attempts...and the vehicle is still under warranty.
Note that even the passage you quoted said: "must first occur within", and our issue did.
Also, read this FAQ about the PA lemon law:
Note that even the passage you quoted said: "must first occur within", and our issue did.
Also, read this FAQ about the PA lemon law:
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William Washington
Active Member
Have you had a Factory Zone Representative involved? It seems like that would be your second stop before doing the Lemon law?
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
A "Factory Zone Representative", wwashing? Please explain. I am not familiar with that term.
TJR
TJR
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
TJR, if it were me, I'd take the cash settlement/buy back and apply it to a non-Ford product.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Great advice Nelson. At this point, if they offered to simply let us walk away from the 10 months left on the lease, I would take that. The car has been great otherwise, but you shouldn't have to pay through the nose and and wrestle with a dealer to get them to fix a serious problem, year after year.
TJR
TJR
William Washington
Active Member
The Zone Rep. is the Company liason to the dealership. There is one rep for a region. He is usually responsible for approving large warrantee claims. He's also the one who gets involved if there is a factory buy-back. His job is also to resolve customer/dealer warantee disputes.
You should tell the service manager that you'd like to speak with the Zone Rep. if they are unable to satisfy you. They should either arrange a meeting or give you the Zone Rep's number.
You may also call the Ford Customer Relationshiip Center ((800 392-3673) for guidence on procedures for resolving the issue. This number is in your owners manual.
Good Luck!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I got all the paperwork from the attorney. They want copies of my sales contract and all my service invoices. Going back through the service invoices I see 6 different invoices noting the trans problem, 4 of which included maintainence work, two stated "could not reproduce", and the first one was dated Oct 04 (6 months after delivery of the 04), and the latest was Aug 06 (last week).
Also, the attorney stated that I should NOT discuss the lawsuit with the dealer or Ford and that if I do, and they lose, I am liable for their attorney's fees. Since I gave them the go-ahead to represent me, IF I wish to continue this, I have a gag-order so to speak.
I think I am going ahead with the lawsuit.
Oh, the dealer did replace my entire steering wheel over the weekend to address the cracked/peeling leather issue.
If Ford didn't put out a sh!tty product, or if they stood behind it better, I might not have to resort to this. They should have replaced the entire tranny after the 2nd occurrence, not just replaced the valve body...again.
TJR
Also, the attorney stated that I should NOT discuss the lawsuit with the dealer or Ford and that if I do, and they lose, I am liable for their attorney's fees. Since I gave them the go-ahead to represent me, IF I wish to continue this, I have a gag-order so to speak.
I think I am going ahead with the lawsuit.
Oh, the dealer did replace my entire steering wheel over the weekend to address the cracked/peeling leather issue.
If Ford didn't put out a sh!tty product, or if they stood behind it better, I might not have to resort to this. They should have replaced the entire tranny after the 2nd occurrence, not just replaced the valve body...again.
TJR
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
I am an arbitrator for several auto manufacurers lemon law cases (Toyota, Honda, Porsche, Daimler-Chrysler, Mitsubishi, etc.). Pay very close attention to the definition of a defect: " a defect or condition, which substantially impairs the use, value or safety". If the problem cannot be proven to meet this definition, the arbitrator will throw the case out.
Most awards need the vehicle to be out of service for quite some time. Also, even if you win the case, the arbitrator may just require the dealer/mfr to repair the vehicle. If you do get a vehicle repurchase, you will have to pay the mileage offset (usually figured depreciation at 100,000 miles), so you may not get as much of a settlement as you might think.
Arbitration is useful for getting problems solved, but don't think you will get anything for free, or that you will "punish" the dealer. You will pretty much get what you objectively lost from having a car in the shop.
Most awards need the vehicle to be out of service for quite some time. Also, even if you win the case, the arbitrator may just require the dealer/mfr to repair the vehicle. If you do get a vehicle repurchase, you will have to pay the mileage offset (usually figured depreciation at 100,000 miles), so you may not get as much of a settlement as you might think.
Arbitration is useful for getting problems solved, but don't think you will get anything for free, or that you will "punish" the dealer. You will pretty much get what you objectively lost from having a car in the shop.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I am not looking to punish the dealer. Frankly, and ideally, I would just like to be out of the lease...simply walk away nothing owed.
That or several hundred or so for diminished value and diminished use would be fine with me.
TJR
That or several hundred or so for diminished value and diminished use would be fine with me.
TJR
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Update (and hopefully CASE CLOSED):
My lawyer requested $10K damages and ESP coverage until lease end. Ford countered with $2,500 and no ESP.
I took it!
Our lease is up in July of 2007 on the Moutaineer so our leverage is pretty minor in this case, especially since the court date for the case was a few weeks after the lease expiration (way to go Ford...nice ploy). You can't get much damages on a vehicle you don't own anymore, rightfully so.
The "damages" are to cover our diminished use and value of the vehicle due to the chronic problems, and to cover any potential future related repair work that will have to be paid out of pocket since the vehicle is now off warranty.
So, I will get a check soon for $2,500...non-taxable settlement.
Oh, and the legal fees were $2,000, also paid by Ford to my lawyer.
This is as good as I hoped for.
TJR
My lawyer requested $10K damages and ESP coverage until lease end. Ford countered with $2,500 and no ESP.
I took it!
Our lease is up in July of 2007 on the Moutaineer so our leverage is pretty minor in this case, especially since the court date for the case was a few weeks after the lease expiration (way to go Ford...nice ploy). You can't get much damages on a vehicle you don't own anymore, rightfully so.
The "damages" are to cover our diminished use and value of the vehicle due to the chronic problems, and to cover any potential future related repair work that will have to be paid out of pocket since the vehicle is now off warranty.
So, I will get a check soon for $2,500...non-taxable settlement.
Oh, and the legal fees were $2,000, also paid by Ford to my lawyer.
This is as good as I hoped for.
TJR
shawn stonbraker 2
Well-Known Member
Congrats TJR. Sorry to hear you had to go through all that. It's looking like that is the same type of dealer I have to deal with. My wife's '05 Mountaineer has a "chirp" that happens all the time just not on a consistant basis. After having it in twice with the "failure to duplicate" excuse, my wife finally went in and had a tech ride with her and it actually happened. They think it is the compressor clutch so they have disconnected it to see if the "chirp" comes back. Haven't heard it yet. (fingers crossed)
Good to hear you got some compensation for the trouble. Not that it will replace all the crap you had to go through, but it is something.
Good to hear you got some compensation for the trouble. Not that it will replace all the crap you had to go through, but it is something.
Tom,
Unfortunately, you may be stuck with this vehicle till the end of the lease. The good part is that it is a leased vehicle and you can give it back to the Mercury dealer at the end of the lease and it won't be your problem any more.
You might want to politely ask the manager at the dealership as to what they intend to do when your vehicle reaches the end of the Warranty, and they still have not resolved the original problem that started back at 11K miles and over 5 trips to the shop???
You may get him to give the service department the go-ahead to keep fixing it every time the same problem acts up....Then when the lease is up dump it back to them.
Surprisingly, most leased vehicles that are returned to the dealers at the end of the lease are not kept or sold by the dealers. In Texas, Ford ships them all to a distribution center in the Dallas area where they are sold at auctions, mostly to used car dealers.
Occasionally, the dealer may get a leased vehicle back that he thinks he can sell so he can arrange to buy it before it goes to auction, but usually the vehicle has to be something special or rare.
...Rich
Unfortunately, you may be stuck with this vehicle till the end of the lease. The good part is that it is a leased vehicle and you can give it back to the Mercury dealer at the end of the lease and it won't be your problem any more.
You might want to politely ask the manager at the dealership as to what they intend to do when your vehicle reaches the end of the Warranty, and they still have not resolved the original problem that started back at 11K miles and over 5 trips to the shop???
You may get him to give the service department the go-ahead to keep fixing it every time the same problem acts up....Then when the lease is up dump it back to them.
Surprisingly, most leased vehicles that are returned to the dealers at the end of the lease are not kept or sold by the dealers. In Texas, Ford ships them all to a distribution center in the Dallas area where they are sold at auctions, mostly to used car dealers.
Occasionally, the dealer may get a leased vehicle back that he thinks he can sell so he can arrange to buy it before it goes to auction, but usually the vehicle has to be something special or rare.
...Rich
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Yes, RichardL, I am stuck with it for another 8 months, all of those months and miles off-lease. If the problem occurs again, which is probable, I will drive it as long as it's intermittent and safe (which is the more likely scenario) or if unsafe and very persistent I will get it "band-aid" fixed again. The dealer already said they would work with me on price if it comes to that...but now that they have or will be paying me I am not sure how willing they will be to share in the expense of the work; if it comes to that.
The real question I have is once this thing is returned, will there be any indication on a subsequent VIN check that it had a lemon lawsuit filed against it?
TJR
The real question I have is once this thing is returned, will there be any indication on a subsequent VIN check that it had a lemon lawsuit filed against it?
TJR
Tom,
If this means anything to you, When I turned in my leased 2001 Sport Trac and purchased a my 2003 Sport Trac, the salesman just walked around the truck looking for body damage, cracked windows, and torn/stained upolstery. He never looked under the hood, never test drove the vehicle, etc. But he did mention that Ford had cracked down on dealers who where not doing a good enough job inspecting the vehicles for damage. The dealer is not stuck with the vehicle so they just put it in the back of the lot until the car hauler comes to take it to the auction.
I had my 2001 ST keyed just above the wheel arch along the whole length of the pickup bed. All I did was used a paint-pen to fill in the scratch. I could still see the scratch from 3 foot away, but I knew it was there, however I could not see it from 6 foot.
I thin the best sceneario would be to have the transmission completely fail before the warranty is up, then they have to fix it. If you let it limp along for the remaining 8 months and just let them patch repairs out of warranty, you may end up spending more than just turning the vehicle back in now and eating the lease pay off.
I don't think you have a legitimate claim for the Lemon Law in PA based on the fact that most of the repairs came after the 12K mile limit. I do think you have a legitimate
claim that the problem has never been completely or properly fixed under warranty and that they should continue to make any continuing transmission repairs until the remaining 8 months of your lease is complete. All of the transmission problems have been brought to their attention during the warranty and they have failed to repair the problem so that it does not reoccur every few weeks or months. I would interpret that as a breach of their warranty.
As for any lawsuits, I doubt that there would be any negative effect when you turned the vehicle back to Ford.
...Rich
If this means anything to you, When I turned in my leased 2001 Sport Trac and purchased a my 2003 Sport Trac, the salesman just walked around the truck looking for body damage, cracked windows, and torn/stained upolstery. He never looked under the hood, never test drove the vehicle, etc. But he did mention that Ford had cracked down on dealers who where not doing a good enough job inspecting the vehicles for damage. The dealer is not stuck with the vehicle so they just put it in the back of the lot until the car hauler comes to take it to the auction.
I had my 2001 ST keyed just above the wheel arch along the whole length of the pickup bed. All I did was used a paint-pen to fill in the scratch. I could still see the scratch from 3 foot away, but I knew it was there, however I could not see it from 6 foot.
I thin the best sceneario would be to have the transmission completely fail before the warranty is up, then they have to fix it. If you let it limp along for the remaining 8 months and just let them patch repairs out of warranty, you may end up spending more than just turning the vehicle back in now and eating the lease pay off.
I don't think you have a legitimate claim for the Lemon Law in PA based on the fact that most of the repairs came after the 12K mile limit. I do think you have a legitimate
claim that the problem has never been completely or properly fixed under warranty and that they should continue to make any continuing transmission repairs until the remaining 8 months of your lease is complete. All of the transmission problems have been brought to their attention during the warranty and they have failed to repair the problem so that it does not reoccur every few weeks or months. I would interpret that as a breach of their warranty.
As for any lawsuits, I doubt that there would be any negative effect when you turned the vehicle back to Ford.
...Rich
Rose Medlin
Active Member
TJR...you have email on my experience.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
RichardL says:
RichardL, I *DID* have a legit PA lemon law claim. Based on the wording of the law the FIRST incident needs to happen prior to 12 months and 12K with first attempted fix during that period; then at least two more recurrences and fix attempts have to occur DURING the warranty period. That's the way the law is as I read it, as explained to me and that is what is applicable in my case.
Furthermore, that seems to be valid because Ford is going to be paying $2,500 to me and $2,000 to the Lemon Law lawyers, which seems to me to be their admission that this is a Lemon Law case. In other words, it's not a baseless case or they would simply tell us to "pound salt", no? They have tons of lawyers I suspect that work full-time defending against these lawsuits; I can't help but think that they would settle under the PA Lemon Law, paying my lemon law attorney fees in the process, if I didn't have an applicable case.
TJR
RichardL, I *DID* have a legit PA lemon law claim. Based on the wording of the law the FIRST incident needs to happen prior to 12 months and 12K with first attempted fix during that period; then at least two more recurrences and fix attempts have to occur DURING the warranty period. That's the way the law is as I read it, as explained to me and that is what is applicable in my case.
Furthermore, that seems to be valid because Ford is going to be paying $2,500 to me and $2,000 to the Lemon Law lawyers, which seems to me to be their admission that this is a Lemon Law case. In other words, it's not a baseless case or they would simply tell us to "pound salt", no? They have tons of lawyers I suspect that work full-time defending against these lawsuits; I can't help but think that they would settle under the PA Lemon Law, paying my lemon law attorney fees in the process, if I didn't have an applicable case.
TJR
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Thanks for the email Rose. If manufacturers would simply stand behind their products and allow the dealers to fix those cars with chronic problems there would be less lemon lawsuits. Estimates are 1 in 10 model year 2004 Explorers, Sport Tracs and Mountaineers have or will exhibit the transmission problems that plagued ours, and the problems will start at 10K miles or less and recurr at about that same interval even as band-aided with valve body replacements, etc. If you have one of the bad ones then you know who you are.
