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Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Oh, now that one left a mark!
Johnny O
Well-Known Member
TomT said:
It used to work that way where I live when there was a steel mill in every town. According to Pittsburgh Magazine, in 1969 the median income in my county adjusted to 2006 dollars was $142,000 (I kid you not). In 2006 the median income in 2006 dollars is $36,000.
When I was a kid everyone's dad worked in a mill and everyone's mom stayed home, and they could afford to. My dad was the vice president of a small local college and we were the poor people in our neighborhood.
Mills are now gone due to a combination of high costs, EPA regs, and imports. The Census Bureau said two weeks ago that the Pittsburgh metro area had the second largest population loss in the U.S. since 2000. New Orleans was #1. Sure, because there ain't no jobs here. On the upside, everyone speaks English because the immigrants are not stupid and go where the work is.
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
Around here, the community colleges are full of students with 4-year degrees who are trying to get some skills so they can find a job.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
I'm not even sure where to begin with parsing and understanding that statement.
Are you trying to say the job market is bad?
Are you trying to say that some 4 year degrees aren't worth much?
Are you trying to say you need an education to get a good job?
First, if someone has a 4 year degree AND is attending a community college to try to get skills to find a job then that in itself sounds like a big problem.
Community colleges don't typically give one the kind of skills to make them gainfully employed in today's world. Frankly, the only reason I see to go to a community college is to save money by then transferring as a junior to a 4-year university.
Community college, for the most part is either the 13th grade or college prep...or as I said, cheap freshman and sophmore years for the transferee.
But hey, that's just me.
Maybe you can shed some light on what you meant, Gavin.
TJR
WXMotorSports DecalsPartsAccs
Well-Known Member
I'll add my two cents...
The construction market is at it's all time high here in the Seattle area. Simply there are not enough general and skill labor personnel to fill all the job vacancies. And, they are paying up-to 85.00 for certain trade skills.
My buddy is a crane operator/crane mechanic at 85.00 an hour and he works 12 hours days. Pretty dam good salary for a trade skill position.
IT is the opposite. Too many people apply for the same position watering down the salary. IT being outsourced to India and the Phillipines is playing a toll on the IT job market in Seattle.
Now you have individuals with 4 year BS degrees who can't get a job where they think the salary level should be at.
And, in many case people graduating this year with a degree are finding the job market is pretty tough out there.
Universities don't offer trade skills classes but the Community Colleges do. Hence, what Gavin is referring to?
The construction market is at it's all time high here in the Seattle area. Simply there are not enough general and skill labor personnel to fill all the job vacancies. And, they are paying up-to 85.00 for certain trade skills.
My buddy is a crane operator/crane mechanic at 85.00 an hour and he works 12 hours days. Pretty dam good salary for a trade skill position.
IT is the opposite. Too many people apply for the same position watering down the salary. IT being outsourced to India and the Phillipines is playing a toll on the IT job market in Seattle.
Now you have individuals with 4 year BS degrees who can't get a job where they think the salary level should be at.
And, in many case people graduating this year with a degree are finding the job market is pretty tough out there.
Universities don't offer trade skills classes but the Community Colleges do. Hence, what Gavin is referring to?
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
SST,
It sounds like what you are talking about with Community Colleges is only 1/2 right. Some community colleges offer adult and vocational tech certificate classes, for learning computer skills (word processing, spreadsheets, etc) among other skills.
But most community colleges simply teach the same liberal arts minor classes that one would take their first two years of a 4 year degree...that's why I didn't understand Gavin saying 4 year degreed people going to Community College to "retake" the core courses they already should have. Now, if they are going to take vo-tech type classes, than they must be retraining for a different job or updating their hard skills. Good for them.
The Philly area (Delaware Valley) has rebounded in IT.
IT may not pay what it did in the gold-rush days (late 90s) but there are still not enough candidates to fill all the jobs...nationwide.
TJR
It sounds like what you are talking about with Community Colleges is only 1/2 right. Some community colleges offer adult and vocational tech certificate classes, for learning computer skills (word processing, spreadsheets, etc) among other skills.
But most community colleges simply teach the same liberal arts minor classes that one would take their first two years of a 4 year degree...that's why I didn't understand Gavin saying 4 year degreed people going to Community College to "retake" the core courses they already should have. Now, if they are going to take vo-tech type classes, than they must be retraining for a different job or updating their hard skills. Good for them.
The Philly area (Delaware Valley) has rebounded in IT.
IT may not pay what it did in the gold-rush days (late 90s) but there are still not enough candidates to fill all the jobs...nationwide.
TJR
Has anyone noticed that the Dodge truck that has the message on it looks like an older model, possibly built BEFORE Chrysler was sold out to a German company...Maybe once an American company is sold out to someone else, the status as being American built is no longer true.
Like the 1969 Cuda is actually now an import or the General Lee is now the Adolph Hitler?
Tom
Like the 1969 Cuda is actually now an import or the General Lee is now the Adolph Hitler?
Tom
Gavin Allan
Well-Known Member
1. Job market is bad for liberal-arts degree holders and not too good for practical arts degree holders with no experience.
2. Many 4-year degrees are not worth much.
3. Yes, having an education helps one get a good job. However, having a SKILL and and education helps one get a great job that can also be a great career.
4. No shiite! That is the problem--lots of 4-year degreed folks at community colleges learning a skill so they can get a job to pay off the student loans.
5. I don't know about the community colleges where you are, but the ones in Missouri offer industry credentialed skills training, like the Ford ASSET program, where students graduate with not only an associates degree, but also a Ford credential, and directly-related industry experience. Several other programs also have apprenticeship ties, such as with the construction industry. Around here, you can get an industry credential, a good training with skills, and an associate's degree from a community college. If your grades were decent in high school, you can even get much of it tuition-free!
I'm no saying that all 4-year degrees are worthless, but students really need to research the employment area they want to go into. Community colleges offer some great opportunities at very affordable prices.
There are also some great skills opportunities in union apprenticeships and the military. Local area career centers can offer quality training too.
Life-long learning and continuous professional development in nearly every occupation is critical these days.
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Gavin,
Regarding your Pt #5, I am only familiar with Community Colleges in two states, NY, and PA, and most all are general, two year, liberal arts type schools, primarily and some teach night classes for cert degrees in various skills, but that's the minority. What you seem to be describing is what I call "Vo-Tech" schools. Maybe where you are from the lines between the two are more blurred.
Also, in PA and NY the Community Schools are typically at the County level.
P.S. If anyone finds themselves a recent 4 year grad without the ability to find a job then they, frankly, didn't research their major very well. A 4 year degree is an investment, and like any investment one must calculate the ROI. Part of calculating that ROI is figuring how the liklihood of finding a job, WHERE, and at what pay. Many people the last couple of decades have been going to school, not too worried about what degree that get or how marketable it is, then crying "unemployment and poverty" when they graduate. No one's fault but their own.
TJR
Regarding your Pt #5, I am only familiar with Community Colleges in two states, NY, and PA, and most all are general, two year, liberal arts type schools, primarily and some teach night classes for cert degrees in various skills, but that's the minority. What you seem to be describing is what I call "Vo-Tech" schools. Maybe where you are from the lines between the two are more blurred.
Also, in PA and NY the Community Schools are typically at the County level.
P.S. If anyone finds themselves a recent 4 year grad without the ability to find a job then they, frankly, didn't research their major very well. A 4 year degree is an investment, and like any investment one must calculate the ROI. Part of calculating that ROI is figuring how the liklihood of finding a job, WHERE, and at what pay. Many people the last couple of decades have been going to school, not too worried about what degree that get or how marketable it is, then crying "unemployment and poverty" when they graduate. No one's fault but their own.
TJR
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I like how before you start school there are xxx jobs available. When you complete schoiol, the jobs have been filled.
Tom
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Caymen said:
Again, that's just a poor choice. It's not that hard to pick a career and a location of the country to live then a 4 year degree and be assured a job when you graduate, even if that is 4 years down the road.
Might you have to pick a career or a part of the country that's not your ideal...sure.
I hear lots of people say there are too few IT jobs. Well, that's not true nationwide.
TJR
Again, that's just a poor choice. It's not that hard to pick a career and a location of the country to live then a 4 year degree and be assured a job when you graduate, even if that is 4 years down the road.
Might you have to pick a career or a part of the country that's not your ideal...sure.
I hear lots of people say there are too few IT jobs. Well, that's not true nationwide.
TJR
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
Yes, IT jobs are in high demand. Especially IT Project Management, which is what I have done for the past 19 years. 
Scott Doughtie
Well-Known Member
I have slowly evolved to IT Project Management myself over the last 15 years...namely warehouse management software. With certain software knowledge like SAP, Manhattan, Oracle, etc., you can just about name your price as a consultant because the industry is severely understaffed.
TomT
Well-Known Member
Getting an education/training in anything IT or health related will guarantee you a job these days.
