Support your president, he needs all the help he can get.
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John Mastrocco
Active Member
Shek,
Agreed - mostly.
But the fewer opportunities, the less money, the harder you have to work. I wonder how many rich kids would succeed if faced with the same obstacles as a poor kid? If President Bush had been poor do you think he would have been as successful? Maybe. And maybe not. And maybe he wouldn't have had the problems with drink he had if he had been poor. Or they might have been worse.
And if Pres. Clinton had been rich he might not have had the success he had. But he also might not have the woman problems he has. One never really knows until they are in that specific situation, which is why it's easy to say anyone could succeed and difficult to prove.
And I hope to God this thread doesn't make the record. Surprised it hasn't already died. Maybe I can help that along by not posting any more.
Agreed - mostly.
But the fewer opportunities, the less money, the harder you have to work. I wonder how many rich kids would succeed if faced with the same obstacles as a poor kid? If President Bush had been poor do you think he would have been as successful? Maybe. And maybe not. And maybe he wouldn't have had the problems with drink he had if he had been poor. Or they might have been worse.
And if Pres. Clinton had been rich he might not have had the success he had. But he also might not have the woman problems he has. One never really knows until they are in that specific situation, which is why it's easy to say anyone could succeed and difficult to prove.
And I hope to God this thread doesn't make the record. Surprised it hasn't already died. Maybe I can help that along by not posting any more.
Jose Santana
Active Member
Shek, your points are well taken . I would still love to see the differences and similarities in the public schools in the poor areas of LA as opposed to the more afluent areas... I bet that would speak volumes.... As a matter of fact, take any urban city and lets see some of the differences.
Shek says
Of course there is no reason a poor white man should not get a job, but lets hand the jobs out fairly and not based on race... Does this mean I am double talking on agrreing with affirmative action? Yes it does..., why - because without affirmative action skin color comes into play and it usually favors white guys. If it were done fairly I would not agree with affirmative action.
Lets face it there is going to be a lot of opportunity for people in that area to be hired into unions, construction and into apprentice type jobs. Basically alot of trade skills will be taught on the job, this is how lots of these trade workers and union members get thier start, usually they have to have a connection on the inside. Once your in your in and everyone knows it..
These skills will give these new electritians, constructioon workers, carpenters and plumbers a future to do better - as in most cases they always do. All I am saying is give some of these blacks a shot at some of this type of work... Sure there will be lots of underqualified people for much the engineering and higher managerial positions that we simply cannot hire just anyone, but for the rest lets keep it fair, is this possible? I would bet not - that is the problem!
You also say due to affirmative action there are a lot of things financially that is easier for a black man to do than a white man. What are they and where are they? Are these in place to repair some of the crap that had been sown for years? I still see in the news quite often of black consumers systematically getting the higher interest rates and car loans and so on, then the banks apologize fire a couple managers and that's it. This type of rascim is what we see now low key and very damaging, but that is another argument in itself.
Dale says
So I guess it should only take what 20-30 years to wipe out a legacy of total economic and social discrimination! The very people you laugh at for having no skills or drive are the one's whose parents never had a shot in life at getting ahead, they never had land to pass down, or money to put away, they never had a quality education, or a voice in government, but since things are starting to change within the last generation or 2 these very people should somehow be able to pass their extensive knowledge on what it takes go to college or even how to apply and prepare for it, they should know how to write a resume, run a business and be computer savy... yea that's it. Everyone should know this as it is instinctive right..... I think not.. So I call what you say to be BS
BTW.. It may not seem like it, but blacks and poor people in general do need to help themselves too. I know there are the issues that are glaringly no ones fault but thier own such as cycles of welfare, fatherless homes, drugs, guns, gangs and all that BS. I am not trying to make excuses for this type of behaviour. I am just playing devils advocate to be sure some of you guys understand too that things done in the past do have a direct impact on many of the very ills we see today among these people, and for whites to try and not take some responsibilty for thi
Shek says
Of course there is no reason a poor white man should not get a job, but lets hand the jobs out fairly and not based on race... Does this mean I am double talking on agrreing with affirmative action? Yes it does..., why - because without affirmative action skin color comes into play and it usually favors white guys. If it were done fairly I would not agree with affirmative action.
Lets face it there is going to be a lot of opportunity for people in that area to be hired into unions, construction and into apprentice type jobs. Basically alot of trade skills will be taught on the job, this is how lots of these trade workers and union members get thier start, usually they have to have a connection on the inside. Once your in your in and everyone knows it..
These skills will give these new electritians, constructioon workers, carpenters and plumbers a future to do better - as in most cases they always do. All I am saying is give some of these blacks a shot at some of this type of work... Sure there will be lots of underqualified people for much the engineering and higher managerial positions that we simply cannot hire just anyone, but for the rest lets keep it fair, is this possible? I would bet not - that is the problem!
You also say due to affirmative action there are a lot of things financially that is easier for a black man to do than a white man. What are they and where are they? Are these in place to repair some of the crap that had been sown for years? I still see in the news quite often of black consumers systematically getting the higher interest rates and car loans and so on, then the banks apologize fire a couple managers and that's it. This type of rascim is what we see now low key and very damaging, but that is another argument in itself.
Dale says
So I guess it should only take what 20-30 years to wipe out a legacy of total economic and social discrimination! The very people you laugh at for having no skills or drive are the one's whose parents never had a shot in life at getting ahead, they never had land to pass down, or money to put away, they never had a quality education, or a voice in government, but since things are starting to change within the last generation or 2 these very people should somehow be able to pass their extensive knowledge on what it takes go to college or even how to apply and prepare for it, they should know how to write a resume, run a business and be computer savy... yea that's it. Everyone should know this as it is instinctive right..... I think not.. So I call what you say to be BS
BTW.. It may not seem like it, but blacks and poor people in general do need to help themselves too. I know there are the issues that are glaringly no ones fault but thier own such as cycles of welfare, fatherless homes, drugs, guns, gangs and all that BS. I am not trying to make excuses for this type of behaviour. I am just playing devils advocate to be sure some of you guys understand too that things done in the past do have a direct impact on many of the very ills we see today among these people, and for whites to try and not take some responsibilty for thi
Dale Carter
Active Member
Jose - I was addressing the people who are running New Orleans for the last thirty or so years and the contention that they suffered because of racism. My point is, how are they the victims of institutional racism in the hurricane damage when the institutions that most directly govern their lives, and caused the effects of Katrina to be magnified, are of the same race and elected by the poor of New Orleans?
New Orleans is more than 65% black. I am not making generaliations about blacks, but, rather, you can't cry disenfranchisment and powerlessness when you have been running the show for 30+ years.
BTW, your comments regarding the availability of education and opportunity beg the question of those who came from the same circumstances and succeeded beyond them. The succesful ones made choices and the disfunctional made choices, they just made different choices. Just as my affluent white school system produced winners and losers, due to their personal choices. Just as I watched kids flunk out of college becasue they were partying instead of studying. Know any rich people with loser relatives/kids? I sure do, it's all about choices. Study for school or hit the crack pipe? Stay in school or have a baby with some guy who will vanish with the wind? Drive drunk or call someone/wait it out? Cuss your boss out or bite your tounge? Go to work or call in "sick" to calm your hangover? Smoke a joint and get drug tested or politely refuse? It's all about choices and it ain't rocket science.
New Orleans is more than 65% black. I am not making generaliations about blacks, but, rather, you can't cry disenfranchisment and powerlessness when you have been running the show for 30+ years.
BTW, your comments regarding the availability of education and opportunity beg the question of those who came from the same circumstances and succeeded beyond them. The succesful ones made choices and the disfunctional made choices, they just made different choices. Just as my affluent white school system produced winners and losers, due to their personal choices. Just as I watched kids flunk out of college becasue they were partying instead of studying. Know any rich people with loser relatives/kids? I sure do, it's all about choices. Study for school or hit the crack pipe? Stay in school or have a baby with some guy who will vanish with the wind? Drive drunk or call someone/wait it out? Cuss your boss out or bite your tounge? Go to work or call in "sick" to calm your hangover? Smoke a joint and get drug tested or politely refuse? It's all about choices and it ain't rocket science.
John Mastrocco
Active Member
Dale,
Methinks the New Orleans government is not who is actually running the city of New Orleans. It's that Mardi Gras syndicate and the restaurant owners and the bar owners and the hotel owners...
The city government kowtows to them because they're the ones paying the city's bills!
Probably an oversimplification, but I bet there is at least a grain of truth there.
:lol:
Methinks the New Orleans government is not who is actually running the city of New Orleans. It's that Mardi Gras syndicate and the restaurant owners and the bar owners and the hotel owners...
The city government kowtows to them because they're the ones paying the city's bills!
Probably an oversimplification, but I bet there is at least a grain of truth there.
:lol:
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Dale Carter
Active Member
Speaking of MArdi Gras syndicates, uh I mean "krewes", why didn't they use their parade floats to evacuate.
They float don't they? HARHARHARHAR
They float don't they? HARHARHARHAR
Dre L
Well-Known Member
Something like 130 replies to go... Aw heck, I'm going for it.
"Liberal mantra", "conservative propaganda", "racial this and that", whine, whine, whine. You bunch of blinded, brainwashed fools. It's a money problem, an economic disorder, a caste system, class warfare, whatever you cringed about in history learning about how other cultures do things, the USA is the same. It isn't the government's fault, it's the people's fault, and this government is of the people, by the people, and for the people.
It's okay, we understand the wealthy, you worked hard to get all that money, and we understand you want to keep it.
Oh, and Bush is still a *******.
"Liberal mantra", "conservative propaganda", "racial this and that", whine, whine, whine. You bunch of blinded, brainwashed fools. It's a money problem, an economic disorder, a caste system, class warfare, whatever you cringed about in history learning about how other cultures do things, the USA is the same. It isn't the government's fault, it's the people's fault, and this government is of the people, by the people, and for the people.
It's okay, we understand the wealthy, you worked hard to get all that money, and we understand you want to keep it.
Oh, and Bush is still a *******.
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
It's the thread that won't die!!!
Class warfare and childish name-calling... Just destroys any credibility you might have had in a debate, and then others will tend to not take your responses seriously.
Class warfare and childish name-calling... Just destroys any credibility you might have had in a debate, and then others will tend to not take your responses seriously.
Dre L
Well-Known Member
Oh no, this post not taken seriously, whatever will I do now. I'll never reach the goal of 300 posts.
Maybe I'll say the Avalanche is a fine piece of automotive machinery and Lego could have built a better sport trac.
I don't need to be taken seriously, this thread proves the problem with this country.
I'll call it what it is SNAFU. The debate lovers in here can keep talking about whether or not there is an issue.
Maybe I'll say the Avalanche is a fine piece of automotive machinery and Lego could have built a better sport trac.
I don't need to be taken seriously, this thread proves the problem with this country.
I'll call it what it is SNAFU. The debate lovers in here can keep talking about whether or not there is an issue.
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Just remember, nobleman, you started all of this!
Jose Santana
Active Member
And so it starts.....
Worcester Telegran and Gazette
WASHINGTON— Minority-owned businesses say they’re paying the price for the decision by Congress and the Bush administration to waive certain rules for Hurricane Katrina recovery contracts.
About 1.5 percent of the $1.6 billion awarded by the Federal Emergency Management Agency has gone to minority businesses, less than a third of the 5 percent normally required.
Yesterday, Sen. Olympia J. Snowe, R-Maine, and Rep. Donald A. Manzullo, R-Ill., asked the Government Accountability Office to investigate whether small and minority-owned businesses have been given a fair opportunity to compete for Katrina contracts.
Andrew Jenkins doesn’t think so.
Once Katrina’s destructive waters receded, he began making calls in hopes of a winning a government contract for his Mississippi construction company.
Jenkins, who is black, says he watched in frustration as the contracts went to others, many of them larger, white-owned companies with political ties to Washington.
“That just doesn’t smell right,†said Jenkins, president of AJA Management and Technical Services Inc. of Jackson, Miss., noting the region has a higher percentage of blacks and minority-owned businesses than other areas of the country.
To speed aid, many requirements normally attached to government contracting were waived by Congress and the administration. The result has been far more no-bid contracts going to businesses that have an existing relationship with the government.
There also was an easing of affirmative action rules for contractors and a suspension of a “prevailing wage†law that black lawmakers and business people believe will hurt the disproportionately large number of black hourly workers in the region.
“It sends a bad message,†said Harry Alford, president of the National Black Chamber of Commerce. “What they’re basically saying to the minority in New Orleans is, ’We’ll make it harder for you to find a job. And if you do, we’ll make sure you get paid less.’ â€
The Department of Homeland Security, whose FEMA division handles most of the contracts, said it is committed to hiring smaller, disadvantaged firms. But many of the no-bid awards were given out to known players who could quickly provide help in an emergency situation, spokesman Larry Orluskie said.
“It was about saving lives, protecting property, and going to who you go to, to get what you need,†he said.
The Labor Department also has said its decision to temporarily suspend affirmative action rules for first-time government contractors doing Katrina work was motivated by a need to reduce paperwork to speed emergency aid.
The Army Corps of Engineers has a better record on minority contracts, with roughly 16 percent of the $637 million in Katrina contracts going to minority-owned companies, according to agency records.
Businesses with more than 50 employees typically must have a written affirmative action plan if they are awarded contracts of more than $50,000. But the Bush administration removed that requirement for three months, saying basic anti-discrimination laws would provide adequate protection.
At a recent meeting in Mississippi for minority businesspeople with federal contracting officials, Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., said many of the 100 owners walked out in anger when told their best chance of getting work was to seek smaller subcontracts from the larger companies.
The larger companies include Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, which Vice President Dick Cheney headed from 1995 to 2000; and AshBritt Inc., a Florida company with ties to Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, the former chairman of the Republican National Committee.
“The president has talked about small businesses being the engine of our economy, but when the time for sound bites is ov
Worcester Telegran and Gazette
WASHINGTON— Minority-owned businesses say they’re paying the price for the decision by Congress and the Bush administration to waive certain rules for Hurricane Katrina recovery contracts.
About 1.5 percent of the $1.6 billion awarded by the Federal Emergency Management Agency has gone to minority businesses, less than a third of the 5 percent normally required.
Yesterday, Sen. Olympia J. Snowe, R-Maine, and Rep. Donald A. Manzullo, R-Ill., asked the Government Accountability Office to investigate whether small and minority-owned businesses have been given a fair opportunity to compete for Katrina contracts.
Andrew Jenkins doesn’t think so.
Once Katrina’s destructive waters receded, he began making calls in hopes of a winning a government contract for his Mississippi construction company.
Jenkins, who is black, says he watched in frustration as the contracts went to others, many of them larger, white-owned companies with political ties to Washington.
“That just doesn’t smell right,†said Jenkins, president of AJA Management and Technical Services Inc. of Jackson, Miss., noting the region has a higher percentage of blacks and minority-owned businesses than other areas of the country.
To speed aid, many requirements normally attached to government contracting were waived by Congress and the administration. The result has been far more no-bid contracts going to businesses that have an existing relationship with the government.
There also was an easing of affirmative action rules for contractors and a suspension of a “prevailing wage†law that black lawmakers and business people believe will hurt the disproportionately large number of black hourly workers in the region.
“It sends a bad message,†said Harry Alford, president of the National Black Chamber of Commerce. “What they’re basically saying to the minority in New Orleans is, ’We’ll make it harder for you to find a job. And if you do, we’ll make sure you get paid less.’ â€
The Department of Homeland Security, whose FEMA division handles most of the contracts, said it is committed to hiring smaller, disadvantaged firms. But many of the no-bid awards were given out to known players who could quickly provide help in an emergency situation, spokesman Larry Orluskie said.
“It was about saving lives, protecting property, and going to who you go to, to get what you need,†he said.
The Labor Department also has said its decision to temporarily suspend affirmative action rules for first-time government contractors doing Katrina work was motivated by a need to reduce paperwork to speed emergency aid.
The Army Corps of Engineers has a better record on minority contracts, with roughly 16 percent of the $637 million in Katrina contracts going to minority-owned companies, according to agency records.
Businesses with more than 50 employees typically must have a written affirmative action plan if they are awarded contracts of more than $50,000. But the Bush administration removed that requirement for three months, saying basic anti-discrimination laws would provide adequate protection.
At a recent meeting in Mississippi for minority businesspeople with federal contracting officials, Rep. Bennie Thompson, D-Miss., said many of the 100 owners walked out in anger when told their best chance of getting work was to seek smaller subcontracts from the larger companies.
The larger companies include Kellogg, Brown & Root, a subsidiary of Halliburton, which Vice President Dick Cheney headed from 1995 to 2000; and AshBritt Inc., a Florida company with ties to Mississippi Gov. Haley Barbour, the former chairman of the Republican National Committee.
“The president has talked about small businesses being the engine of our economy, but when the time for sound bites is ov
John Mastrocco
Active Member
When asked what he thought of Rowe v Wade President Bush responded:
"Whichever way out of New Orleans works best for them."
:lol:
End this thread before it's too late!!!
"Whichever way out of New Orleans works best for them."
:lol:
End this thread before it's too late!!!
Last edited by a moderator:
