Eric Pennal
Well-Known Member
Josey,
I agree, but challenging Conservatives' pre-conceived notions will get you nowhere.
I agree, but challenging Conservatives' pre-conceived notions will get you nowhere.
Support your president, he needs all the help he can get.
- Thread starter Dre L
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Being somene that grew up in a ghetto and being the only "White Boy" in my class, I have seen the amount of assistance my fellow classmates got. Some got free rides to college, some got free rides to private highschools.
A while back I ran into a guy I went to school with. We started going over names of kids I went to school with.
Out of 20 of us in the class, I was the only one that did not go to jail, prison, have teenage parenthood, or murdered.
Pretty sad.
I do agree, with all types of people, no matter what the color, race, religon, gender, etc. there are always going to be some that use racism as a crutch, while others use it to see what they don't want t be. The same goes for alcoholism. Some kids, whose parents were drunks follow in thier footsteps, while others decide they do not want to live like that so they will not drink. Same with smoking, gambling, or anything else that is considered "bad".
Where I work, no matter your color, age, sex, religon, or handicap, you get paid the same.
Then again, I am union. Equal work for equal pay.
Tom
A while back I ran into a guy I went to school with. We started going over names of kids I went to school with.
Out of 20 of us in the class, I was the only one that did not go to jail, prison, have teenage parenthood, or murdered.
Pretty sad.
I do agree, with all types of people, no matter what the color, race, religon, gender, etc. there are always going to be some that use racism as a crutch, while others use it to see what they don't want t be. The same goes for alcoholism. Some kids, whose parents were drunks follow in thier footsteps, while others decide they do not want to live like that so they will not drink. Same with smoking, gambling, or anything else that is considered "bad".
Where I work, no matter your color, age, sex, religon, or handicap, you get paid the same.
Then again, I am union. Equal work for equal pay.
Tom
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Josey asks: "will the jobs be fairly distributed or do we need someone to watch over this to be sure that blacks are not excluded"
Fairly distributed to me would be you have X positions to fill with laborers and you fill those X positions with the X "best" candidates, regardless of color.
TJR
Fairly distributed to me would be you have X positions to fill with laborers and you fill those X positions with the X "best" candidates, regardless of color.
TJR
Eric Pennal
Well-Known Member
TJR,
True. But how often does that happen? That doesn't even happen between white candidates.
True. But how often does that happen? That doesn't even happen between white candidates.
Dre L
Well-Known Member
That would be the same ideal everyone has, even "minorities".
However, reality is, you put 2 guys head-to-head, equally qualified, chances are better that race, age, gender, or looks will play the deciding factor.
You know what I say? "Go unions!"
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Nobleman--Where do you want them to go?
nobleman is 100% correct. Even if one guy is slightly better qualified, but lets say he is slightly verweight, the thinner guy will get the job.
That is one of the reasons I enjoy being a Union Boilermaker. I know the guy working next to me is getting paid the same as I am...Not because he plays golf with the owner or takes his foreman out hunting.
Two people doing the same job should be paid the same. Not for whatever that person will work for.
Tom
That is one of the reasons I enjoy being a Union Boilermaker. I know the guy working next to me is getting paid the same as I am...Not because he plays golf with the owner or takes his foreman out hunting.
Two people doing the same job should be paid the same. Not for whatever that person will work for.
Tom
Dre L
Well-Known Member
There's a book called "Soap Opera". If you have a chance, you should read it.
Dale Carter
Active Member
Yeah, trade unons are the only places on Earth that are immune to politics and favoritism. :lol:
Nobody gets cherry jobs or preferences because their uncle is the shop steward or a union honcho.
Nobody gets cherry jobs or preferences because their uncle is the shop steward or a union honcho.
TrainTrac
Well-Known Member
Give a break! It's the same old liberal mantra... They're disenfranchised, they're oppressed, they're victims, it's not their fault, the man is keeping them down! That is such bullsqueeze! The fact is, many of the "poor black people in that area" were in that situation to begin with as a result of their own actions and poor choices they made in their lives. In many ways, there are more education and employment opportunities for minorities these days than whites. Scholarships, grants, affirmative action, quotas, just to name a few.
What we saw in New Orleans was, in some part, the poor demonstrating the very behavior that made them poor in the first place, and the behavior that keeps them poor. We saw a complete and utter lack of self sufficiency and sense of responsibility. It was as if they had no sense of responsibility for their own safety. Did they deserve help? Sure, but somewhere along the line someone has to recognize that the so-called poor do have some responsibility for their own lives and their own safety.
Some examples of successful blacks in America, many of whom came from impoverished beginnings: Dr. William H. Cosby (Bill Cosby), Robert Johnson (founder of BET), John Johnson (publisher of Ebony and Jet magazine), Professor Thomas Sowell, Professor Walter E. Williams, Secretary of State/Dr. Condolezza Rice, Former Secretary of State/General Colin Powell, George Washington Carver, Johnny Cohchran and Dr. Mae Jemison (astronaut). Sadly, these people are not looked to for inspiration and as positive role models. Rappers, pro athletes, and other celebrities are held in much higher regard.
The opportunity is there for anyone in America today to better their lives. It's up to each individual to make the right choices and have the desire to better themselves. If you have a low paying job, then re-train or educate yourself so that you can get a better paying job. If you do so, then you'll be able to better your life in every way. People have got to want to take charge of their own lives, and be responsible, not buy into the victimization and cradle-to-grave crap.
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John Mastrocco
Active Member
Same old conservative mantra - "It's their own damned fault" and "If they really wanted to they could stop being poor."
Has it ever occured to either you or Joseymack that it's a combination of what both of you are saying? In some cases more joseymack than Andy H, in other cases more Andy H than Joseymack. In extremely rare cases, entirely one way or the other (or as close as it can get.)
There is no single answer. There is no easy answer. It's all very complicated and changes from one location, hell, from one household to the next.
I see one person wanting to take the all problems of the world as their own and the other wanting to completely absolve himself of any blame whatsoever.
Wild Eyed Liberals AND Beady Eyed Conservatives. Gotta love 'em!
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Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
Yeah, it's tough when people have a bias that just because of your skin color you are less honest or less dedicated an employee:
Jose Santana
Active Member
Yes Andy H they are forms of reverse discrimination - in place to undo the wrongs, discrimination and employment opportunities whites have enjoyed for centuries in this country. Prior tyo these acts it was perfectly acceptable to not hire minorities just because they were not white...
Do you feel these programs have made the playing field level? I personally think we are better - and I feel there is light at the end of this tunnel but we are not yet there. MAybe you don't give a rats arse one way or the other but I do!
I never said it is impossible to achieve because you are black, but in a land with "so much against them and so many more obstacles" - (my opinion) - it is easy to see how one can have a feeling of hopelessness and dispair.
And please with the George Washington Carver...... all during high school history I was the only kid of color in the class. The only thing I ever felt good about was this guy inventing 101 uses for a peanut... yea I felt proud!
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
My best friend in college was raised by his grandparents in Queens NY. He did great in school, got good grades in college, got a great job with AT&T right out of college as an engineer, is living the good live in NJ now.
He is black, but always did things "the white way" (so says some of his black peers), went to a mostly white school, hung out with white friends, lives in a white neighborhood in the burbs, doesn't talk ghetto or gangsta. He never looked for affirmative action (actually hates it), he looked down at panhandlers who would say things like "Help a brother out" (actually, he would say 'get a freaking job!'). He was the best man in my wedding 16 years ago!
He is just an all-around great guy. He hasn't turned his back on his heritage, but he will be the first to tell you that MOST of what is wrong with POOR, BLACK AMERICA, is CAUSED by POOR BLACK AMERICA.
Of course, he, like Bill Cosby, can't criticize his lower income brothers, nor are they looked at as role models, because they aren't "keeping it real!"
TJR
He is black, but always did things "the white way" (so says some of his black peers), went to a mostly white school, hung out with white friends, lives in a white neighborhood in the burbs, doesn't talk ghetto or gangsta. He never looked for affirmative action (actually hates it), he looked down at panhandlers who would say things like "Help a brother out" (actually, he would say 'get a freaking job!'). He was the best man in my wedding 16 years ago!
He is just an all-around great guy. He hasn't turned his back on his heritage, but he will be the first to tell you that MOST of what is wrong with POOR, BLACK AMERICA, is CAUSED by POOR BLACK AMERICA.
Of course, he, like Bill Cosby, can't criticize his lower income brothers, nor are they looked at as role models, because they aren't "keeping it real!"
TJR
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
I live in an area that is close to 50/50 white/black. My church is probably 60/40 white/black. We have several interracial couples that my wife and I bum around with. At this point, I don't really care if they are white/purple/yellow/black (as long as they are not Red Communisits...) :lol:
When Jesse Jackson and the Reverend Sharpton come in and criticize something/somebody for doing something simply because they are white (which is probably 80% of the time they are bitching about some topic) we are the upstanding community (white or black) cannot criticize them or challenge their statements without being called "cracker", "racist", or "uncle tom". So let me ask, who's the one being racist?
I am a conservative, yes. I do believe that the poor (be it white or black) have made a series of decisions that keep them poor. But I do believe that those decisions may have been made for them (by parents, friends, peer-pressure, society, "the man", etc) and made by them (get an education, speak proper english, McDonalds is not a career). Educations is available FOR EVERYONE and I would challenge ANYONE who says otherwise. In this community, education beyond 8th grade is not emphasized by particular areas. Most poor parents that I know constantly criticize the need for education, claiming that it won't do any good. This is one of the series of issues that the poor communities need to address themselves. We as a society can throw all the money we can at the "war of poverty" (what a ridiculous term), at improving inner-city schools, etc but if the community doesn't want to change itself, there is nothing that can be accomplished long-term.
I do believe that if you constantly give people "stuff", they become dependant on being given "stuff" and stop working to obtain "stuff". If I stopped working, I would lose my "stuff". I work to live and obtain "stuff". I have not been given anything in my life (including my college education) and my life is better for it as I appreciate all that I have as I have worked for it. The few things material wise that I have been given is usually the first to be worn out, broken, used up, etc. That's a natural human tendancy.
The old saying is correct:
Give a man a fish and tomorrow he'll be hungry. Teach a man to fish and he will always be satisfied
When we give and give and give everything from housing to healthcare to money to food and clothes people begin to loose desire for personal gain. They can sit and watch Judge Judy, eat Pringles and Ben and Jerry's with Pepsi to wash it all down with while sitting in an apartment that costs them very little if anything that is furnished, has air conditioning so that they can sit there and complain that the government "hasn't done nothing for me". Take away all the "stuff" that the government gives them and what would they have?
Poverty is a self-inflicted, repetative and crippling deases of society. While the poor person may not have self-inflicted the damage to themselves, the society creates the problem by not making these people do anything to get the assitance but remain poor. If they are no longer poor, they loose the assistance. Why should they work to become better and self-sufficient?
Rely on the government for everything you have and all of your "needs" and you will be dissappointed. Rely on yourself to obtain all the necessary essentials for life and you know you can make it thourgh rough times.
When Jesse Jackson and the Reverend Sharpton come in and criticize something/somebody for doing something simply because they are white (which is probably 80% of the time they are bitching about some topic) we are the upstanding community (white or black) cannot criticize them or challenge their statements without being called "cracker", "racist", or "uncle tom". So let me ask, who's the one being racist?
I am a conservative, yes. I do believe that the poor (be it white or black) have made a series of decisions that keep them poor. But I do believe that those decisions may have been made for them (by parents, friends, peer-pressure, society, "the man", etc) and made by them (get an education, speak proper english, McDonalds is not a career). Educations is available FOR EVERYONE and I would challenge ANYONE who says otherwise. In this community, education beyond 8th grade is not emphasized by particular areas. Most poor parents that I know constantly criticize the need for education, claiming that it won't do any good. This is one of the series of issues that the poor communities need to address themselves. We as a society can throw all the money we can at the "war of poverty" (what a ridiculous term), at improving inner-city schools, etc but if the community doesn't want to change itself, there is nothing that can be accomplished long-term.
I do believe that if you constantly give people "stuff", they become dependant on being given "stuff" and stop working to obtain "stuff". If I stopped working, I would lose my "stuff". I work to live and obtain "stuff". I have not been given anything in my life (including my college education) and my life is better for it as I appreciate all that I have as I have worked for it. The few things material wise that I have been given is usually the first to be worn out, broken, used up, etc. That's a natural human tendancy.
The old saying is correct:
Give a man a fish and tomorrow he'll be hungry. Teach a man to fish and he will always be satisfied
When we give and give and give everything from housing to healthcare to money to food and clothes people begin to loose desire for personal gain. They can sit and watch Judge Judy, eat Pringles and Ben and Jerry's with Pepsi to wash it all down with while sitting in an apartment that costs them very little if anything that is furnished, has air conditioning so that they can sit there and complain that the government "hasn't done nothing for me". Take away all the "stuff" that the government gives them and what would they have?
Poverty is a self-inflicted, repetative and crippling deases of society. While the poor person may not have self-inflicted the damage to themselves, the society creates the problem by not making these people do anything to get the assitance but remain poor. If they are no longer poor, they loose the assistance. Why should they work to become better and self-sufficient?
Rely on the government for everything you have and all of your "needs" and you will be dissappointed. Rely on yourself to obtain all the necessary essentials for life and you know you can make it thourgh rough times.
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
<Message was too long for one post>
If people would get off the "I was oppressed" mantra and work to make a better life for themselves and their offspring, there would not be oppression. The oppression comes from the lack of education, the lack of respect for others, the lack of self-dignity, the lack of self-worth, the lack of desire, the lack of having to provide on their own....
I'm sure your right and that the abuse is in a minority percentage, and that it is not limited to the black community.
When I lived in Southern California, as a white male I had much fewer choices of higher education than my fellow black, hispanic and asian friends did. I was an above average student, but not a 1600 SAT student. I was in band, I was not the starting quartback that won state. I did not grow up lacking the things that I needed to excel, but my parents did not have a college building named after them. I could not get into ANY California state colleges. So, what exactly do you mean education similar to that of white folks? That is a RACIST statement if I were to go by the standards set forth by Rev. Jackson.
Employment similar to white folks? What might that be? I am a degreed engineer. What I do requires a degree, not just some guy hired off the street. A black man can get an Engineering degree just as easily as I did. It would have cost him the same to go to college that it cost me. I'm sorry but I have worked at Steak and Shake. I have worked in manual labor jobs right next to black guys my same age. They had the exact same opportunities that I have. GIVE ME PROOF other wise.
There is no reason why they shouldn't. There is also no reason why a poor white man can't get a job either. Entreprenurial opportunities exist for everyone. In fact, due to Affirmative Action, there are a lot of things financially that is easier for a black man to do than a white man. So don't give me any BS Jesse Jackson line that it is impossible for a black man to get ahead.
I would say that for most people, this statement is contrary to reality. For a portion of the population, this statement holds true. I won't say it's an issue that is held exclusely by the black community but by all races.
I don't follow this statement as the "low paying jobs" are left for those without education, skills or desire to succeed. Being McDonalds fry cooker is a place to work while in high school, as an extra job as a job to fill inbetween career jobs. It is not a place to to make a living off of.
Who's defininition of fairness and equality? I'm sorry, if it's Jesse's then he will claim racism is so much as a white man works on a crew, let alone oversee's one. When you want to see anyone working the job of reconstruction then make sure that they are applying for the jobs, faithfully work the jobs every day, show up on time everyday, do what they are supposed to do. It won't make any difference what col
If people would get off the "I was oppressed" mantra and work to make a better life for themselves and their offspring, there would not be oppression. The oppression comes from the lack of education, the lack of respect for others, the lack of self-dignity, the lack of self-worth, the lack of desire, the lack of having to provide on their own....
I'm sure your right and that the abuse is in a minority percentage, and that it is not limited to the black community.
When I lived in Southern California, as a white male I had much fewer choices of higher education than my fellow black, hispanic and asian friends did. I was an above average student, but not a 1600 SAT student. I was in band, I was not the starting quartback that won state. I did not grow up lacking the things that I needed to excel, but my parents did not have a college building named after them. I could not get into ANY California state colleges. So, what exactly do you mean education similar to that of white folks? That is a RACIST statement if I were to go by the standards set forth by Rev. Jackson.
Employment similar to white folks? What might that be? I am a degreed engineer. What I do requires a degree, not just some guy hired off the street. A black man can get an Engineering degree just as easily as I did. It would have cost him the same to go to college that it cost me. I'm sorry but I have worked at Steak and Shake. I have worked in manual labor jobs right next to black guys my same age. They had the exact same opportunities that I have. GIVE ME PROOF other wise.
There is no reason why they shouldn't. There is also no reason why a poor white man can't get a job either. Entreprenurial opportunities exist for everyone. In fact, due to Affirmative Action, there are a lot of things financially that is easier for a black man to do than a white man. So don't give me any BS Jesse Jackson line that it is impossible for a black man to get ahead.
I would say that for most people, this statement is contrary to reality. For a portion of the population, this statement holds true. I won't say it's an issue that is held exclusely by the black community but by all races.
I don't follow this statement as the "low paying jobs" are left for those without education, skills or desire to succeed. Being McDonalds fry cooker is a place to work while in high school, as an extra job as a job to fill inbetween career jobs. It is not a place to to make a living off of.
Who's defininition of fairness and equality? I'm sorry, if it's Jesse's then he will claim racism is so much as a white man works on a crew, let alone oversee's one. When you want to see anyone working the job of reconstruction then make sure that they are applying for the jobs, faithfully work the jobs every day, show up on time everyday, do what they are supposed to do. It won't make any difference what col
John Mastrocco
Active Member
Shek,
Poverty does breed more poverty. It can be overcome, but the obstacles are much greater if you aren't poor - not insurmountable unless you are led to believe they are, but greater. And that is part of the problem - the belief the obstacles are insurmountable. This is something that can only be overcome by changing the thought processes of the nation's poor, and how that can be done is beyond my experience or knowledge.
But the other parts of the problem are the obstacles themselves. The educational opportunities for poor people and in poor neighborhoods are not exactly equal to those in better neighborhoods. While even that can be overcome with hard work, but that also requires a change in the thought process.
The same things exist for the middle class when compared to the rich. The middle class has obstacles that are not faced by the rich. They can be overcome, but it is a matter of believing in that possibility before you can even try. While a greater percentage of middle income people have that belief than do the poor, it is still not unanimous.
Money does provide more opportunity. The more money, the more opporunity. The higher the economic class, the more money. It's not that the opportunity isn't there, it's just the availablility of that opportunity that is more restricted.
In the end, while much of what you say has truth in it, it's not the whole picture. For any economic class.
Poverty does breed more poverty. It can be overcome, but the obstacles are much greater if you aren't poor - not insurmountable unless you are led to believe they are, but greater. And that is part of the problem - the belief the obstacles are insurmountable. This is something that can only be overcome by changing the thought processes of the nation's poor, and how that can be done is beyond my experience or knowledge.
But the other parts of the problem are the obstacles themselves. The educational opportunities for poor people and in poor neighborhoods are not exactly equal to those in better neighborhoods. While even that can be overcome with hard work, but that also requires a change in the thought process.
The same things exist for the middle class when compared to the rich. The middle class has obstacles that are not faced by the rich. They can be overcome, but it is a matter of believing in that possibility before you can even try. While a greater percentage of middle income people have that belief than do the poor, it is still not unanimous.
Money does provide more opportunity. The more money, the more opporunity. The higher the economic class, the more money. It's not that the opportunity isn't there, it's just the availablility of that opportunity that is more restricted.
In the end, while much of what you say has truth in it, it's not the whole picture. For any economic class.
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Dale Carter
Active Member
New Orleans - Black mayors since 1978, black commision presidents, black entrepreneurs, basically a black controlled city since the mid-1970's. Mayor Morial was the first black grad of LSU Law School in 1951, so the education system has been somehwat integrated for over 50 years.
Somehow it is still "whiteys" fault that nearly HALF of the city is on welfare and the city is corrupt and incompetent.
Man those blue eyed devils got some heap strong mojo hexes.
OK technically they are Creole, but that doesn't stop Jesse, Al and Louis from taking them under their rainbow wings.
Somehow it is still "whiteys" fault that nearly HALF of the city is on welfare and the city is corrupt and incompetent.
Man those blue eyed devils got some heap strong mojo hexes.
OK technically they are Creole, but that doesn't stop Jesse, Al and Louis from taking them under their rainbow wings.
John Mastrocco
Active Member
Dale,
You mean you don't have a "mammy" voodoo doll?
:lol:
You mean you don't have a "mammy" voodoo doll?
:lol:
Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
Rocco-
Yep, money does breed greater opportunities, but is not always the limiting factor.
The biggest limitation to success is personal drive. If you don't "want" it, you won't get it. Success is not a gift but rather one of the hardest jobs you ever have to do (unless you're Paris Hilton who the only things she's done is make a video and be a decendant of an honest, hard working man).
BTW, what the record for most replies to a post??
Yep, money does breed greater opportunities, but is not always the limiting factor.
The biggest limitation to success is personal drive. If you don't "want" it, you won't get it. Success is not a gift but rather one of the hardest jobs you ever have to do (unless you're Paris Hilton who the only things she's done is make a video and be a decendant of an honest, hard working man).
BTW, what the record for most replies to a post??
