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The question is, who do you trust more, Consumer Reports or hearsay about somebody’s brother's buddy?
Click to expand...



Since Consumer Reports claims they use the reports of actualy owners, Consumer Reports techically all heresay.



Darin makes the comment that a Lincoln is a POS. I know of 4 of them with over 250,000 miles. Darin likes Toyota's and thinks they are great. I enjoy turning wrenches on cars. I am the guy everyone calls when they have car trouble. I extend my tools and garage for people I know, work with, neighbors, etc when I know they have a problem. I fix it without asking for a dime in return. I can read all about how good the dash material on a Toyota is all day long. I do know when I installed a radio in the 1996 Tacoma my niece has, the dash clips just crumbled apart. This is a Toyota with a high quality interior. What am I suposed to think? When I pull the rotors off that same truck, my Escort Rotors are larger that that Tacoma's are. WTF? Look at the thickness of the frame on that Tacoma. Thin, thin, thin.



Mind you, I dn't sit and read all the books that claim how much stronger, faster, better, longer, tougher, wider, thinner, lighter, heavier, yaddi, yaddi, yaddi...and take it as the truth. I see it with my own eyes and experience. I see the quality, or lack of, by comparing one to another. I see some of the dumbest designs you can ever think of. I cuss at them all. If I had a choice of one line of cars to work on, honestly, it would be Ford. Maybe it is because I learned how to turn wrenches on my 1977 Maverick with well over 150,000 miles on it.



I just don't look at everything else and say it is junk. At cr shows, I climb under vehicles and compare them t other vehicles.



Sorry, I just don't buy the Toyota quality and reliability when there are Toyota's in the family that just aren't reliable. I don't feel the quality in the plastic that is used on the dashes.





Tom
 
>> Sorry, I just don't buy the Toyota quality and reliability when there are Toyota's in the family that just aren't reliable. I don't feel the quality in the plastic that is used on the dashes.



The plastic in the dash of my wife's '04 Mountaineer is a lot thicker than the plastic in the dash of the average Toyota, I will grant you that. And, it's a good thing because the Ford mechanics need that thick plastic on and around the dash to lay their service orders on when writing out the service reports when I have that Mountaineer in for under-warranty tranny service for about, oh, I dunno, the 6th time in 20K miles (has been f'ed up since 11k miles, now has 34K).



I have NEVER had such problems with an import...EVER! But that's just one data point.



Thicker plastic isn't the issue. Hearing a solid thunk when the door slams isn't the issue. Seeing stronger welds and thicker frames when under the car, isn't the issue. Sure, these things mean something to you, and you perceive them as quality, and they may be, but they aren't reliability. Reliability, in my opinion, is the absence of non-regular service.



The issue, to me and most people, is will I or won't I have the vehicle in for a buttload of non-scheduled, under (and after) warranty service? That's the issue, and with all my American cars so far, I have been able to plan on, and I do NOT exaggerate, about 6 to 10 days a year in the shop for NON-scheduled service...and this is during the first 5 years of ownership...the days just go up afterwards.



That is FRANKLY Un-F'ing ACCEPTABLE!



BTW, I still love my ST, even though it's front tires are cupping with only 17K on them, and I have been rotating them...but then again, I understand that's because of that good old "Ford precision!"



TJR
 
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Tom likes to turn wrenches. I don't. I do like doing the minor maintenance stuff, but that's it.



That's why I bought a Toyota; I just want to drive something with minimal hassles/maintenance. I've had 3 years on the road with my Matrix to see that it does provide what Consumer Reports says it will.



I like buying a car that never sees the inside of a dealer's service dept. I don't even know the phone number or name of anyone in the Toyota dealership I bought my car from. :)
 
Truc: Did you read that article? It affected 24,000 cars in the US that were 2001 models. Talk about low probabilities!
 
Thought for the Day:



Percieved Quality...



As in the Geo Metro/Toyota Corolla in the Van Nuys, CA. plant back in the early

'90s. Same assembly line, same people (Union, by the way!), assembling the same

platform, the same cars, just different fenders and headlights, and emblems!!!

90% shared parts...

The people who bought the Toyota Corolla gave a very high rating to their cars in the first

90 days of ownership ( J.D.Powers I.Q.S., Initial Quality Survey), while the owners of the

Geo Metro gave that car a very poor ( Below average quality rating, Do Not Buy, etc...).

"Perceived Quality", again..

My thought on this, for example;

The people who bought the Toyota had a radio knob fall off, and they may have thought,

"Oh, my God! I pushed too hard on that knob!...I'd better quit abusing my Happy, Pretty,

Shiny Toyota!"...

The people who bought the Geo Metro just thought, "Oh, my God! What a piece of $(-)^!

I do this every day for a living, and I know these facts to be true!

;)
 
tracnblack,



Exactly why I don't trust all those surveys. I have heard people say, I just run the crap out of it. It is only a POS Ford Escort. If it were a Civic, I would take care of it. Those things last forever.



Why would you take care of one vehicle and not the other. Is it because of the percieved quality that if you take care of a Honda (or Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi, VW, etc) it will take care of you, but if you buy an Escort it will let you down no matter what so why bother taking care of it.



...and Darin, just because I like to turn wrenches does not mean that I buy something to turn wrenches on. My Trac has only been in the dealer for things that were under warranty. Common things like the DPFE sensor, and peeling radio bezel. Besides that, nothing else. MY 1992 Escort GT had a fuel pump go bad. Covered under warranty. It was never at the dealership for anything else. It was on the road for 10 <B>HARD</B> years. I took it off the road because the body started to look like hell because Ohio must own stock in the sale companies. They tend to cover the road with salt an inch thick.



One day on the road in a NE Ohio winter. A Black vehicle becomes white. In the 10 years I had it and 135,000 miles, it did not have 1/2 the problems my brothers Civic SI had with only 120,000 miles. My family mostly drives Fords. My brother will drive whatever. It doesn't matter to him. A few vehicles he has owned was two Honda's, a Civic SI and a CRX, a Toyota Camry, and even a Renalt LeCar. Believe it or not, the Renalt was more reliable then the Honda or Toyota was. He drove that thing over 200,000 miles.



Every vehicle maker has its problems. All the engineering in the world can't guess what the actual car will experience in the real world. I can only go by what I have seen. The imports that I have seen, driven, worked on, etc have not been as reliable as the Fords I have driven. I used to work for a company that used nothing but GM cars and trucks. The president of the company drove a Pontiac Bonneville over 300,000 miles. The only reason why he got rid of it was because the parent company told him it was time to get a new car. What did he buy? Another Bonneville.





Tom
 
Caymen, you may remember, then, the old (I'm guessing) 1981 or 1982 ReNault

LeCars and the shoddily built and sold cars under the Pontiac name of the LeMans,

I think! My (now) ex-brother-in-law had one of those and it was all we could do to keep it

running at any cost! And at the time I had just gotten(?) my Michigan Auto Certification!

I was fresh at it!!!

Gee, Mr. Wagoner, lets just JUMP at the chance to get into another partnership

with ReNault, or as it is known, nowadays, as Nissan/ReNault Spa!

Me No Think So!!!

I think Mr. Goshn (last name pronounced the same as "loan") is trying to pull a

Trojan Horse on G.M.... We'll see if they are smart enough not to fall for it!

Just my simple two cents worth!

Talk to ya'll later Tom, and others...



tracnblack out.:cool:
 
The Toyota Corolla and Geo Metro were not built in the same factory. The Chevy Nova was a clone of the Corolla. The Metro was built by Suzuki.



I owned a Corolla from the Van Nuys plant. When I bought the car I had a choice of two identical cars, one from Japan and one from California. I chose the one built in California. A few years later I had a wreck. When I picked up the car, the body shop manager told me he could tell mine was built in California, because the body panels were not assembled as well as he would see in the Japanese-built versions.
 
Trac: Your info is totally wrong. The Geo PRISM was the clone of the Toyota Corolla.



And Tom, I can imagine Ohio winters are tough on any car. We see very little salt/sand down here in the sunbelt. Our biggest worries are UV damage in summer and hailstorm damage in springtime. And yeah, I see plenty of unmaintained cars of all makes and models down here. I see just as many trashed out Hondas as I do Fords, heck maybe more since many kids want Hondas.



Nelson was very specific about his needs for a car. It needs to be very economical, reliable, and inexpensive to buy.



Your response to look at a Mazda3 was solely based on your support for Ford products. The Mazda3 does not fit Nelson's criteria for a commuter vehicle. It may be reliable, but is not fuel efficient or inexpensive to buy.



That's where you and I differ. You have a biased perception of vehicle makes... I don't. Nothing wrong with being the way you are, but it doesn't give you a lot of credibility to offer advice on a new car purchase.
 
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I know it was mentioned, but if I was looking for a small econo box for commuting I think I would look first at the Yaris....mostly because they seem sporty and inexpensive.
 
The Yaris is a fine choice for a commuter car, but in a test on Edmunds.com, they noted that to add the options that are standard on the Honda Fit, you'd end up with a Yaris that comes close in price to a Corolla.
 
Hey, People...how about a Hyundai Accent? I have a 2000 Accent, no problems so far, and it gets a steady 35mpg. Bought it in 2000 for $9,000. Priced it the other day at $14,000.
 
$13,850 according to Edmunds.... here's a link to their review:



The ingenious ways to fold the rear seats look very interesting.
 
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Darin,



It needs to be very economical, reliable, and inexpensive to buy.
Click to expand...



Inexpensive to buy. Starts at an MSRP of $13,710. I consider that inexpensive, compared to the Honda fit at the same price.



Economical. EPA Mileage Estimates: 26 mpg / 34 mpg Good there too.



Reilable. Has a consumer rating average of 9.4 (I did not do any research on Consumer Reports because I don't put much faith in their recomendations)



Sounds like something Nelson should check out. Would you agree or do you still think I only suggested it because it belongs to the Ford family of cars?



I hate the Focus and I wish Ford would either kill it and build something that doesn't look stupid or come out with another Festiva.





Tom
 
Sorry Tom, I had forgotten the Mazda3 base model comes with a 2.0L 4cyl. The only model I've talked to co-workers about is the 2.3L model which is around $16K and only gets mid 20's mpg.



So definitely the Mazda3 should be one to shop along with the others recommended. I think the Mazda3 is a very well engineered car and looks great, too. I just didn't think it fit the basic model econobox that Nelson was shopping for.
 
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Caymen said:
I hate the Focus and I wish Ford would either kill it and build something that doesn't look stupid or come out with another Festiva.
Click to expand...



Is that meant to imply that the Festiva "looks" better than the Focus?



TJR
 
When you look at a Festiva, you knew what it was suppsed to be. Drive a Focus and you just look silly driving one.



I think the Festiva looks better then the Focus ever will.





Tom
 

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