I interpreted it to mean the majority of AF folks, while deployed, aren't busting down doors with an M-4 and in direct contact with an enemy. I think that's an accurate statement. All serving admirably, but I think (read: my opinion) those in direct combat sit a bit higher on the pedestal regardless of service (Ex: USA/USMC Infantry, SEAL, Corpsman, USAF TACP or CSAR crew).
Thought on joining the Military (nowadays)
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Ken Stewart
Active Member
You think? I have several guys serving "outside the wire" as they say in our biz (outside secure compounds). That's fine to interpret that way if you'd like, but is it fair to tell those AF people guarding the convoys getting attacked everyday (many AF), patrolling the IEDs (we do), etc. Again, my post isn't inflammatory in any way ... just putting a little pride in my service, seeing the extremely high deployments and knowing EXACTLY first hand what my folks are doing and it's dodging bullets and trying to avoid explosives right along with every other soldier out there.
The configuration of the services calls for the marines and soldiers to primarily serve in these roles. The lines are no longer that distinct ... should we not respect the others serving side-by-side there? I understood what he meant, but understand he's no longer in and just trying to update the current state of affairs, one AF guy to another. Hope you understood my intention Kef.
The configuration of the services calls for the marines and soldiers to primarily serve in these roles. The lines are no longer that distinct ... should we not respect the others serving side-by-side there? I understood what he meant, but understand he's no longer in and just trying to update the current state of affairs, one AF guy to another. Hope you understood my intention Kef.
Dale Carlson
Active Member
Ken,
I didn't say ALL. And I stand by what I said. I never said, or meant to imply that AF people weren't being heavily deployed. I know the state of AF deployments. I know they're heavy, but you have misinterpreted, or read something else into what I wrote. My comment was to make a quality of life comparison WHILE they're deployed. I know there are SOME AF folks in the thick of it. BUT, and not to denigrate the jobs my former brothers and sisters are doing because I am extremely proud of what they're doing, most AF personnel are not wearing out boot leather on the streets, roads, and highways of Iraq or in the mountains of Afghanistan. They're not waiting for the next IED (or the next friendly-looking native for that matter) to blow up, or a sniper to take them out, or an insurgent ambush around the next corner.
Y'know, most aircraft require runways that aren't being blown up on a daily basis, and since ALL aircraft are vunerable while they're on the ground, CENTCOM doesn't base most AF aircraft in the middle of the fight. Since most AF personnel are in aviation or some type of aviation support, they're stationed with the aircraft. Kind of follows, doesn't it? Hell, Ken, you tell me where all of the AF main operating bases are. Also, and you know this, there's a sh*tload of AF support for the theater that doesn't even originate in-theater.
I didn't say ALL. And I stand by what I said. I never said, or meant to imply that AF people weren't being heavily deployed. I know the state of AF deployments. I know they're heavy, but you have misinterpreted, or read something else into what I wrote. My comment was to make a quality of life comparison WHILE they're deployed. I know there are SOME AF folks in the thick of it. BUT, and not to denigrate the jobs my former brothers and sisters are doing because I am extremely proud of what they're doing, most AF personnel are not wearing out boot leather on the streets, roads, and highways of Iraq or in the mountains of Afghanistan. They're not waiting for the next IED (or the next friendly-looking native for that matter) to blow up, or a sniper to take them out, or an insurgent ambush around the next corner.
Y'know, most aircraft require runways that aren't being blown up on a daily basis, and since ALL aircraft are vunerable while they're on the ground, CENTCOM doesn't base most AF aircraft in the middle of the fight. Since most AF personnel are in aviation or some type of aviation support, they're stationed with the aircraft. Kind of follows, doesn't it? Hell, Ken, you tell me where all of the AF main operating bases are. Also, and you know this, there's a sh*tload of AF support for the theater that doesn't even originate in-theater.
Ken Stewart
Active Member
Ok, guess my "not inflammatory" is being taken as inflammatory. I am currently in, I'm a career field manager that it is my job to understand the state of deployments. I already said I understood you didn't mean ALL. You've avoided my comment of yes as a matter of fact our guys, at least many of mine, are side-by-side doing IED sweeps, convoys, etc. That is a fact. My career field is 60+% deployed, 40% at home ... with more coming.
You've missed my point of pride in service and giving credit to all of them sleeping side by side and hitting the streets of Baghdad and other places together, not hiding behind the soldiers and marines. Today is not yesterday ... CSAF has raised his hand and said AF will pick up the Army slack, that is a fact that we live with today.
You have not seen me get mad, yell, or use any curse words toward you. But since you're reacting and glossing over every amicable attempt I made to UPDATE you on today's affairs, we may as well end this here.
You've missed my point of pride in service and giving credit to all of them sleeping side by side and hitting the streets of Baghdad and other places together, not hiding behind the soldiers and marines. Today is not yesterday ... CSAF has raised his hand and said AF will pick up the Army slack, that is a fact that we live with today.
You have not seen me get mad, yell, or use any curse words toward you. But since you're reacting and glossing over every amicable attempt I made to UPDATE you on today's affairs, we may as well end this here.
Dale Carlson
Active Member
Ken,
I haven't been out that long. And I do appreciate the fact that more AF types are in the line of fire every day. I guess having worn SOF purple for so long, and having been deployed with the shooters so many times, that I'm a little bit more color-blind than the airman sitting next to me.
I haven't been out that long. And I do appreciate the fact that more AF types are in the line of fire every day. I guess having worn SOF purple for so long, and having been deployed with the shooters so many times, that I'm a little bit more color-blind than the airman sitting next to me.
Ken Stewart
Active Member
75% of my AF career has been involved w/SOF ... I understand very well. I currently work with many of those guys and you understand that's all I can say about that ... tip of the spear!
I retired from the US Army after 20 years of active duty.
The military teaches and practices teamwork like no other civilian organization can except for some Police and Fire Departments.
The disapline is something that is needed in many young people. Yes, the younger generations may be smarted but many of them lack the disapline and team work that the military instills.
The military may not e for everyone, but those who would never consider joining one of the US armed forces probably are the ones who need the disapline and teamwork more than most.
Remeber, if it doesn't kill you, it can only help you by building some character. If you think your employer or union will do that, you will be if for a big surprise.
...Rich
The military teaches and practices teamwork like no other civilian organization can except for some Police and Fire Departments.
The disapline is something that is needed in many young people. Yes, the younger generations may be smarted but many of them lack the disapline and team work that the military instills.
The military may not e for everyone, but those who would never consider joining one of the US armed forces probably are the ones who need the disapline and teamwork more than most.
Remeber, if it doesn't kill you, it can only help you by building some character. If you think your employer or union will do that, you will be if for a big surprise.
...Rich
Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
I am in charge of readiness and deployments for a Group and two Squadrons and I will confirm what Ken is saying. Our deployment environment has changed immensely in the past year. We now support 365-day deployments into Army units. These are in addition to AEF deployments. Typically, our guys get less than 2 weeks notice of these involuntary deployments. I can't go into any details here, but a significant portion of our unit is currently deployed in some very scary places, and we aren't even SOF. It isn't as bad as I saw when I was in AFSOC during 9-11, but it is approaching that level.
Gerald Pierce
Well-Known Member
As a 24 year Navy enlisted, I can say you will not get rich, but I would not trade my job for the world. Starting out, I made abut 800.00 a month (1982) plus benefits. I was single, so that didn't mean much. Now, as an E9, with all the pay, benefits, and tax breaks on non-taxable benefits, I make about 102k. Of course, I will spend 12 of the next 15 months away from my wife and family. we elected for me to go alone this tour to keep some stability for my 17yo daughter. I have spent the majority of the last 2 months in Peru, Chile, Panama, Ecuador; and I would not pass it up for anything. In all, I have been to Denmark, Norway, England, Scotland, Germany, Holland, Spain, Malta, Italy, France, Croatia, Greece, Turkey, bahrain, Seychelles, Sicily, Portugal, Egypt, Israel, Colombia, Venezuala, Panama, Puerto Rico, Chile, Ecuador, and Peru. I started out in Electronics, and now am the senior enlisted advisor to the CO (admin weenie) -- the most awesome job I have ever had.
My son enlisted in 2004, and is now an E5. With his benefits, he makes a pretty fair chunk of change, especially since he maintains residence in our home when he is not underway. we will deploy back down south again next year together, and I can't wait. With all the schools he has gotten, he will walk out after 4 years with nearly his BS, since he has some college before. What he doesn;t complete, the govt will pay for since he has the college fund.
Are there rules and regulations that cramp your style? yep. I am 42 and can not stay out overnight in a foreign port without specific permission from my boss (very easy to get, but I still have to ask "Dad"). Can I take vacation when I like, no. It has to be planned so that it fits the ships schedule, but that is much like any job. Can I all in sick? Nope. Doc is onboard.
I have spent 16 of 24 years at sea, and will most likely spend the next 6 there also, again, by choice.
Three kids cost me no more that 75.00. I have lived in gvt housing 2 blocks off the beach. I had an 18 hole golf course 100 yds from the driveway, and about a 4 acre lake in the back. I now get a housing allowance of 1600.00 a month for my mortage or rent.
My only complaint, as other have said is the medical, but it is getting better. My family gets to choose the doc, I have to use the one I am assigned.
Bottom line, there are jobs in the military that will train you quite well for the outside. Making it a career after that is a choice only you can make. Me, I'll go home when they throw my ragged ol' arse out.
It's a tough decision, only you can make it. If you have questions, email me. may take a few days to answer, since my wife has to forward my email from home.
My son enlisted in 2004, and is now an E5. With his benefits, he makes a pretty fair chunk of change, especially since he maintains residence in our home when he is not underway. we will deploy back down south again next year together, and I can't wait. With all the schools he has gotten, he will walk out after 4 years with nearly his BS, since he has some college before. What he doesn;t complete, the govt will pay for since he has the college fund.
Are there rules and regulations that cramp your style? yep. I am 42 and can not stay out overnight in a foreign port without specific permission from my boss (very easy to get, but I still have to ask "Dad"). Can I take vacation when I like, no. It has to be planned so that it fits the ships schedule, but that is much like any job. Can I all in sick? Nope. Doc is onboard.
I have spent 16 of 24 years at sea, and will most likely spend the next 6 there also, again, by choice.
Three kids cost me no more that 75.00. I have lived in gvt housing 2 blocks off the beach. I had an 18 hole golf course 100 yds from the driveway, and about a 4 acre lake in the back. I now get a housing allowance of 1600.00 a month for my mortage or rent.
My only complaint, as other have said is the medical, but it is getting better. My family gets to choose the doc, I have to use the one I am assigned.
Bottom line, there are jobs in the military that will train you quite well for the outside. Making it a career after that is a choice only you can make. Me, I'll go home when they throw my ragged ol' arse out.
It's a tough decision, only you can make it. If you have questions, email me. may take a few days to answer, since my wife has to forward my email from home.
Phillip Clark
Member
I'm currently an F-15 Avionics tech. and have been for the last 2 1/2 years. Best decision in my life. If you do decide to become a regular line officer, don't be cocky. Just because you may have a bar and a college degree, doesn't make you any better then anyone else in the military. The officers I like the most, along with NCO's, ask for something to be done. It's polite and you will also get more respect and have people more willing to work with you. Also, if you get a chance, join the Base Honor Guard. I just started my 2nd year of it and it's just an unbelievable experience.
Phillip Clark
Member
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Phillip Clark
Member
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Sal Adinolfi
Well-Known Member
I love my Job, Always have.
I am in the CTANG (CT Air Nationa Guard). 23 years AGR (Active Guard Researve).
I have been in the nicest of places. and some real Crap holes.
I am part of Air Combat Command. I work on the computers that control the aircraft over the combat zone.
I joined because I believed in what I do. Not for the Pay. It is not bad once you get up in years and rank.
I believe everyone should go though some sort of military training. even if it is just basic, training.
I think it gives a person the right to say I tried it and did/did not like it. It wil also make people respect others that have served our country.
MSgt. Sal A
I am in the CTANG (CT Air Nationa Guard). 23 years AGR (Active Guard Researve).
I have been in the nicest of places. and some real Crap holes.
I am part of Air Combat Command. I work on the computers that control the aircraft over the combat zone.
I joined because I believed in what I do. Not for the Pay. It is not bad once you get up in years and rank.
I believe everyone should go though some sort of military training. even if it is just basic, training.
I think it gives a person the right to say I tried it and did/did not like it. It wil also make people respect others that have served our country.
MSgt. Sal A
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
C2, congrats on the rarely seen "triple post"
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Richard L, I disagree with this. Don't get me wrong--I fully agree that the military is great at instilling the discipline and teamwork you refer to. But I think it's unfair to summarily group those who would never consider joining as being those in most need of that type of improvement. There are millions of young people out there, both now and in the last several decades, who have opted a life that doesn't include military service, that are well disciplined, and are strong team members and leaders in their everyday life. I consider myself to be one of them.
In fact, when and where I grew up, the general rule was exactly the opposite of what you're saying--the people who went into the military were the ones who were most in need of discipline and teamwork skills. Anyone who had even a modicum of these skills would never give any thought to the military--that was reserved for the D-minus GPA "losers" who lacked the basic talents to do anything else with their life. Now, don't get me wrong--I now fully realize that this was both a geographical bias (I grew up in the upper Midwest, which I've sense found out is historically a low-recruiting region--I suspect this is in large part because there are very few military bases in the region, so growing up, the only exposure my generation had to the "military lifestyle" was through "Platoon" and "Full Metal Jacket".), and a chronological quirk (I've heard that the military image and recruiting have picked up around the area I grew up since the time I was there).
Back when I was a kid, growing up in north-central farming country, the basic rule was that if you had enough life skills, discipline, and intelligence, you went to college. If you didn't have quite that level of talent, you went to tech school. If you weren't capable of that, you got a job bagging groceries at the local grocery store. If you were enough of a loser to fail at that, you married your sister and took over the family farm. And if your sister was already married to your brother, THEN you joined the military. (Like I said, it was a different time, and a very different perspective, than most of you were raised in. But I can honestly say that everyone I knew who went into the military fit that model exactly--right down to the sibling incest.)
Anyway, long story short--In large part through more exposure in my adult life, I've come to lose that anti-military bias that I was raised with. I hope that more of our military members can lose the bias they have against those who have chosen not to join them in that endeavor. You don't have to be a talentless, disciplineless loser to not desire to pursue military service--just as you don't have to be a talentless, disciplineless loser to enlist.
--Bill
Dale Carlson
Active Member
I think it's a lot more complicated about why people join the service. I don't think there's just a single profile, or even a dozen profiles that might fit the people who join. I had made it as first alternate from my congressman's district to the AF Academy, and could have tried again if I had wanted to. I had the grades for and a scholarship to UCLA. I even had a couple of careers in mind - journalism or architechture, both of which I had excelled in high school. Being the son of an Army first sergeant, I definitely had the discipline. But I was tired of school, and let the scholarship lapse, didn't re-try for the Academy, and basically just kicked around for a year working different nowhere jobs, until I decided it was time do something. I joined two years after the end of Vietnam, so it was still not a good time for the military. But I worked hard at my job, kept my nose clean, and found a purpose with which to live my life. What more can ask for?
Mark B
Active Member
Bill V,
Where did that pile come from? D-minus GPA 'loser'? sibling incest? Usually a voice of reason; why voice trash like that even if you've moved past it?
How about this? Not every high school grad is blessed with a Mommy & Daddy who can help their child through college. There are some who have the ability but not the means. Since the GI Bill days, the military has been a free (or low cost) ticket to the world of higher education. Some of us that didn't marry our sister and also considered service above inconvenience have taken the military route.
Go Navy! and Go Fighting Illini! (and go PACE & VEAP!)
Greekster,
Unless you can get guaranteed flight training, I'd think twice. Remember, even then, it's only the opportunity that's guaranteed. Your obligation remains, regardless of how your training goes.
The military is in a wierd place. Extended tours and stop loss programs would give me pause. If you join, make sure you at least get a shot at your dream (in writing) and be willing to accept alternative outcomes. Good Luck.
Where did that pile come from? D-minus GPA 'loser'? sibling incest? Usually a voice of reason; why voice trash like that even if you've moved past it?
How about this? Not every high school grad is blessed with a Mommy & Daddy who can help their child through college. There are some who have the ability but not the means. Since the GI Bill days, the military has been a free (or low cost) ticket to the world of higher education. Some of us that didn't marry our sister and also considered service above inconvenience have taken the military route.
Go Navy! and Go Fighting Illini! (and go PACE & VEAP!)
Greekster,
Unless you can get guaranteed flight training, I'd think twice. Remember, even then, it's only the opportunity that's guaranteed. Your obligation remains, regardless of how your training goes.
The military is in a wierd place. Extended tours and stop loss programs would give me pause. If you join, make sure you at least get a shot at your dream (in writing) and be willing to accept alternative outcomes. Good Luck.
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Bill V
You appear to be equating disapline and teamwork to intelligence. It has nothing to to with intelligence, It's all about trust.
Your illusion of disapline and teamwork that you see in your workplace is not the kind of disapline and teamwork that I'm talking about. Only those who served in the military, especially in a combat zone know that kind of teamwork and trust.
It has nothing to do with patriotism, mom, apple pie or the girl next door. It's all about helping your buddy and your buddy helping you, whatever it takes to get the job done, without asking questions, or wondering if you will get a promotion or a medal for doing it, and you sure don't do it for the pay.
...Rich
You appear to be equating disapline and teamwork to intelligence. It has nothing to to with intelligence, It's all about trust.
Your illusion of disapline and teamwork that you see in your workplace is not the kind of disapline and teamwork that I'm talking about. Only those who served in the military, especially in a combat zone know that kind of teamwork and trust.
It has nothing to do with patriotism, mom, apple pie or the girl next door. It's all about helping your buddy and your buddy helping you, whatever it takes to get the job done, without asking questions, or wondering if you will get a promotion or a medal for doing it, and you sure don't do it for the pay.
...Rich
Bill V
Well-Known Member
RichL--
No, I'm not equating them. I fully understand the difference.
As someone who doesn't live a military-free life, it's just as unfair for you to presume to know my perception of teamwork and discipline as it would be for me to presume to know yours.
fy10lyny--
I was not "blessed with a Mommy & Daddy who can help their child through college", but I made it just fine. Don't presume that everyone in college who isn't military has a silver spoon up their @$$.
Like I said, it was a geographical bias that I believe is fading. But the evidence supporting it was there. And it was said to show that biases can run just as anti-military as they can run anti-non-military (which seems common on this site), but both biases are completely and equally flawed.
--Bill
No, I'm not equating them. I fully understand the difference.
As someone who doesn't live a military-free life, it's just as unfair for you to presume to know my perception of teamwork and discipline as it would be for me to presume to know yours.
fy10lyny--
I was not "blessed with a Mommy & Daddy who can help their child through college", but I made it just fine. Don't presume that everyone in college who isn't military has a silver spoon up their @$$.
Like I said, it was a geographical bias that I believe is fading. But the evidence supporting it was there. And it was said to show that biases can run just as anti-military as they can run anti-non-military (which seems common on this site), but both biases are completely and equally flawed.
--Bill
Thomas Rogers
Well-Known Member
fy10lyny says:
I will probably get some major disagreement on this, but I believe that ANYONE that has the ability can create the MEANS to go to college.
- If your family is low income most get ample financial aid.
- Two year community schools are an excellent way to reduce overall costs and transfer students end up with the same degree from their 4 year school with no indication on it they were a transfer student
- Summer jobs can easily pay for a two-year community college, and most find that they can work part-time when going to community school because they typically live at home and that frees up time that typical campus life would consume.
- If you pick the right major than internships and other full and part-time, paid work can commense typically starting your 3rd year, and it often pays quite well.
So, financial aid, hard work, planning the right major (that has ROI), taking on loans if needed your 3rd and 4th year, and I submit that anyone can get a degree.
Now, if it's technical training one wants, well then that can be a different story...but much of the same advice applies depending on the area.
TJR
I will probably get some major disagreement on this, but I believe that ANYONE that has the ability can create the MEANS to go to college.
- If your family is low income most get ample financial aid.
- Two year community schools are an excellent way to reduce overall costs and transfer students end up with the same degree from their 4 year school with no indication on it they were a transfer student
- Summer jobs can easily pay for a two-year community college, and most find that they can work part-time when going to community school because they typically live at home and that frees up time that typical campus life would consume.
- If you pick the right major than internships and other full and part-time, paid work can commense typically starting your 3rd year, and it often pays quite well.
So, financial aid, hard work, planning the right major (that has ROI), taking on loans if needed your 3rd and 4th year, and I submit that anyone can get a degree.
Now, if it's technical training one wants, well then that can be a different story...but much of the same advice applies depending on the area.
TJR
