Two Large Unions Say They Are Leaving the A.F.L.-C.I.O.

[Nelson Atwell]

This may spell the beginning of the end for the major unions in this country. For businesses that have to deal with unions, this is good news, because a divided enemy is always easier to defeat than a united one.

 

[Brett Hartwig]

Don't start bashing unions, there would be no need for unions if there were fair labor practices in place and workers were not forced to defend themselves and their rights.



Proud member of International Association of Firefighters Local #441

 

[Kerry Matthews]

I grew up in a union household, been a union member several times in several unions, and I won't bash 'em, I just don't care for 'em... (in a union right now... useless! Good thing it's not my 'primary' job!)

 

[Rick Kent]

Trouble in worker's paradise?



The quickest way to be bashed is to demand that no one touch your sacred cow with a touch of righteous indignation added for good measure. Civilized discussion is just not possible when talking religion or politics on this board.



Another example of the vast right wing conspiracy at its best:



"I do not believe that anybody in the AFL or any other organized labor group is at fault," said Bill Brumfield, who supports the AFL-CIO leadership. "The conservatism of the country has driven a wedge between workers and organized labor."

 

[Alan Peters]

I do agree with Krash. But I also agree with FKent. Unions are quick to blame other rather themselves. Just so happens a republican is in office and its an avenue out.

 

[Robert Barker]

My Dad and Grandfather were in unions and damn proud that they were. While in college I was a member of the Teamsters while working at UPS..... we were on strike during the summer of 96 or 97 supposeably for many issues.... in all honesty I saw very very very little value that the Union added. Many of those that I know that are still there are VERY disappointed with what they get for their monthly dues and their leadership (or lack there of). It is sad what the Unions have become. They use to represent the people now the Union fat cats get rich while the workers get NOTHING for their HARD earned money, in my opinion.



Trac N Tennessee

 

[Tom Schindler]

Just because two major unions are planning on leaving the AFL-CIO does not mean they are going to disolve. They will no longer be affiliated with the AFL-CIO.





Tom



Boilermakers Local 900

Barberton, Oh

 

[Austin Tatious]

Unions brought American workers out of the sweatshops, deadly mines, and industrial deathtraps of the early 20th century. All workers have benefitted from organized labor in better wages and working conditions.



Times have changed and the unions need to adapt just as U.S. businesses need to adapt.

 

[Tom Schindler]

The problem with foreign companies moving production into the US is that they do not have any overhead with things like Pension Benefits. They promised the workers that they have a retirement account as part of the benefits package. It would be the same as someone buying a new vehicle with an advertised HP rating of 300. Once you buy the vehicle, they could say "We are sorry, we can not afford to give you 300 HP, here is 200". Would you not be pissed? The same goes for the scum bag companies that back out of a pension fund. Many workers do not get pensions, health care, paid vacations, sick pay, holiday pay, 401(k), or any other goodies you get from working for a company. A benefits package can make you choose who to work for.



Many companies that are non-union offer <B>BETTER</B> benefits then those that are union. Why? The fear of a union coming in. Unions have prevented companies from changing policy's that are placed to "fire" workers that should be protected. The woman that has a sick child and is absent because of her childs illness. You enforce a strict policy on attendance, and if the company has under 50 employees, the FMLA act does not apply. Once that person has been removed, the policy changes. You get "buddy deals". You like to golf with the owner of the company, I don't golf and I prefer to spend time with my family on my time off. You get the raises, the promotions, etc. I get to work for the same pay, year after year. "I am sorry, we just cant afford to give you a raise since I just got aa new Viper today and my wife needed a new Lexus. Her had 25,000 miles on it. I did not want her to drive something that could break down on her". It happens on a daily basis.



As long as there are unions out there, we all will be able to enjoy the benefits we have.





Tom

 

[EddieS'04]

Austin...Well said. Many americans dont have the slightest Idea what good union members did for all of american labor. Including the ones that hate unions. Many union haters I have spoken with cant give me sound answers. Many hate because family hates, or the crowd they run with hates.

The union job I had for 36yrs would have really sucked without representation. The wages would have been less than minimum. They would run you off for not brushing your teeth. I know that sounds extreme and is hypothetical. I could write a novel on the unfair and law breaking practices I saw in that 36yrs.

Thank God there was representation for many a good worker, when it was needed.

Union is only as good as its membership and being a fair minded dedicated employee.

There are always bad apples on both sides of the fence,(labor & management, its human nature).

I on the other hand comend any employer that is fair and just, that runs a non union operation.

Unions gave the american workforce union and non, a fair place in our capitalist society.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Eddie,



I completely agree. I have worked for scum bags, but I have also worked for good non-union companies.



I have seen the deals. I get $75.00/day Per Diem, the other guy gets $85.00/day. We are both on the same job together. I train the guy and he gets paid more then I do. I have 5 certifications and he has three. He fails the other two. He still gets paid more then I do.



What's the problem? He is buddies with the boss, I am not. I have been there for 9 years, he has only been there for 4 years. He takes the boss to W.VA. on a hunting trip. I stay at home with my family.



No matter how you look at it, it is wrong.



The unions help eliminate that kind of crap.





Tom

 

[Rich Stern]

Eddie, some of us got our union opinions the hands-on way.



My opinion formed a couple of decades ago, when first starting out in business and attending a trade show in Chicago. The Teamsters 1) charged absurdely inflated prices for unskilled labor, 2) inflated their billed time, 3) treated customers awfully, 4) solicited bribes, 5) extorted us by holding our property hostage. They acted like thugs. We had Teamsters walk up to our booth and tell us that if we dared to pick up a box or plug in an electrical cord, we would find our exhibit in a sorry state the next morning. Outright threats of destructive violence against our property for performing simple acts of menial labor that the Teamsters wanted to bill us for at $80/hour.



Prior to that event, I had no pre-conceived notion regarding unions.



Does that mean all unions are bad or that their good work to improve labor conditions years ago wasn't valuable? No. But over the years, I saw similar behavior in the same location as well as other locations. Some of that good legacy has died, killed by the very same organizations who did the good work in the first place.

 

[walter clark]

I havent ever been a member but do belive in a system of checks and balances to keep both partys in line. Unions and the company managment staff serve a purpose much like the diffrent branches of goverment. The thing I have problems with is when either side becomes so radical it distorts the fairness from it all. As stated above I do feel that corporations have been quicker to adapt to more moderen methods where as the unions are kinda stuck in a 1960's type of pratices. I feel the unions could become a more attractive option to modern workers if they would change some of there methodolgy. Workers do need repsentation, even though the labor laws have improved they do favor the companys. Just rember guys we want to be treated fair but if we prevent our americam companies from being competive in terms of an international market they will go elseware and then we will be all out of jobs and a union is all we will have left. Unions dont create revinue nor consumer goods. Companies create goods and services in turn employing workers. Companies are created to make money and expand profits not to support us and hand out paychecks. American workers need to wake up and relize the competion we are faceing out there, juan down in mexico will do the same job for about 25% of what we demand for pay. And there are less restrictions on companies elseware.

 

[Rick Kent]

Bravo people.



Honest debate on the merits of unions without name calling and personal attacks.



I personally think the problem that unions face is an much more educated worker. Workers question the value they receive for their union dues. Non union workers get the same or better wages, the same or better benefits and their raises are not limited to a negotiated percentage across the board. Pay in most companies these days is merit based.



Labor laws, access to the media and the aforementioned educated workers have eliminated the opportunity for many of the abuses by companies. Occasionally you hear stories of abuse by management but you are just as likely to hear a story about union leadership caught up in scandal as well.



There is constant movement in the workforce generated by competition for the most talented people in the labor market. That did not exist during the heyday of the union.



As someone else mentioned in an earlier post, global competition will put you and the union out on the street and unemployed in a heartbeat if you cost to much to employ.



As an example of effective union leadership look at the hockey lockout. The players union just accepted a deal that is far worse than the original deal the owners offered pre-lockout. Why did they do this? Because after being out of work for a year, the players finally realized that maybe the owners were not lying about the economics of hockey after all. Or in the alternative, the players realized than an annual average salary of $1.2 million per player in a league with no national revenue stream was not that unreasonable after all. In addition, the lockout put the league in far worse financial shape than before and there is a real danger of several teams going out of business putting more players out of work.



The same basic economic principal applies to every industry. Business must be able to compete in the market, operate at a reasonable profit for growth and expansion. Making your employer non competitive will come back to bite you.

 

[John Mastrocco]

My father was a lifetime grocer. Needless to say, his salary was never as high as someone in a profession. Grocery stores - even the big chains - are notoriously tight fisted because their margins are so tight. But how can someone work at a job that pays barely enough to get by and save money for retirement? Without the union his salary would never have gotten above minimum wage and he would not have a pension.



Unions still serve a useful function. What needs to be done is the mass membership needs to wrest control back from the big bosses - who are really no better than the businesses they fight. Fat cats are fat cats regardless of their supposed ideology.

 

[Jim Reeves]

I've never been a member of a union, and hope I never have to be. I guess my problem is I have known people who were involved with union labor disputes, and they were threatened with property damage and bodily harm if they didn't go along with what the union leaders thought they should do. It's my job to put food in my family's mouth. I sure don't want anyone trying to tell me when I should or shouldn't work. I'm sure alot of unions do alot of good, and I'm not trying to lump them all together. I just want to make my own decisions when it comes to doing what's best for my family. I did experience some frustration a few years ago while dealing with a union company. We build machine tools, and I was involved with a mis-wire problem that needed to be fixed at the customer's site. I made the correction here at my plant, and it took 15 minutes for one man to do the work. At the union site, it took 5 hours and four different people to make the same repair due to their union rules. I just don't get how it can be good for a company, and in the long run its employees, to have 4 people doing what it only takes one to do. Like I said, this is only my experience and my opinion. I respect your right to have yours.

 

[Thomas Rogers]

I have nothing but respect for many unions, especially the early unions, but it seems that more and the last couple decades many unions serve no useful purpose for their members and do nothing more than "take their cut" of wages. Corruption and scandal has hurt many unions (especially here in Philadelphia). Furthermore, today, what with more competition among companies and a generally level playing field due to federal and state labor laws, I think that for many trades unions have outlived their need.



Now...a story (sorry so long):



I was part of a Laborers Union when I worked construction as I put myself through college. If I wanted to work, I had to join the union. I worked for a company that installed highway signs. We worked all over NY, Conn, PA, NJ. And, whenever we had a new job that lasted more than a few days at any particular location, we had to bring on someone from the local laborers union. Man did we ever get some "winners". Most showed up late, and wanted to leave early. Leaned on a shovel all day. Took breaks for a drink of water every 30 minutes...and most were old...(sorry I was 18 at the time so everyone seemed old), but most were in their late 40s and 50s. These guys were "friends" of someone in the union and untouchable. For the most part, these one or two local guys per job were merely ballast and a burden.



My dad worked for the same company and managed an entire dept by the time I started there (I know...nepotism...I can call a spade a spade). He worked out of the office at that time, bidding jobs and coordinating crews. But, in his early days, he was a laborer and then foreman. He tells a story about one "local" they got on one job that was totally worthless. Everyone was busting their hump digging holes on the side of a hill for overhead structures. The digging was hard, mostly rock, and there was no way to get an auger in there due to the hill. So, it was jabbers and 8' bar all the way. This one guy did nothing for two whole weeks while everyone else was killing themselves. Finally, on what was his last day, and after my dad rode him for several days to try to get some work out of him, he confronted him. My dad asked him why his hole wasn't done (3' wide by 8' deep). He had been working on the same hole for 3 days. Most of the guys on the crew could finish a hole like that in about 4 hours. Anyway...the guy said: "Boss, the digging is just too hard. Men aren't made to work like this!". He had about 3 feet left to go. My dad, who was a foreman and didn't dig that many holes at that time, but who had certainly dug his fair share in the past told him to "GET THE F' OUT OF THAT HOLE!". The guy did, and my dad jumped in, and in a flurry of bar strikes, jabber jabs and shoveling a bunch of dirt and mostly rock flew out. In about 45 minutes of non-stop work, my dad hit the 8' mark and climbed out of the hole. The "local" looked in amazement, and said..."Sure, if you want to show off and kill yourself!"....and to that, my dad *THREW* the guy into the hole and said "DON'T YOU EVER COME TO WORK ON ONE OF MY JOBS AGAIN!". My dad then went to a pay phone, called the local labor office, filed a complained, told then not to send that guy back and if they didn't have any better, don't bother sending anyone. Then he called the companies office and told them to be prepared to get a call from the union, and they can send as many guys as they want, but if they are all worthless than each one will be shown the road.



The moral of the story...in many unions there are more members than work, and due to the requirement that many jobs be filled at least in part by union labor, the net result is that companies are forced to put on jobs union employees that, quite frankly, are often not as effective as a non-union employee; and worse yet, displace the position that could be filled by a very effective (eager) employee. Bottom-line, they reduce the employee pool a

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

I have been on both sides of labor.... been a Teamster twice, and have had to deal with members of four different unions at one place where I worked. My grandfather was a dedicated labor man, as three of my uncles, two of my aunts and several cousins are. My wifes family has a history of organized labor involvement that included her grandfather, uncles and cousins.



I was a Teamster at:

The San Diego Wild Anaimal Park (totally useless)

UPS (semi-useless)



I had to deal with the Flight Attendants Union, Air Line Pilots Union, Gate Workers Union, and Air Line Mechanics union when I was at American Airlines as an Engineer.



I can tell you that I absolutely dispise unions, especially Teamsters. The policies that were enforced by Teamsters and the other unions made life difficult at best. At the SDWAP, I was told that they were there to keep my pay high.... right. Minimum wage at the time was $4.75/hour. I made $5.35/hour. Once you take out the $20 monthly dues and the $50 inital fees, I made about $4.68/hour one summer. Yep, they sure helped me.



When I was at UPS, the shop foreman (an absolute ****** of a woman) made our lives tremendously more difficult due to the fact that the management people could not move people around or assist in any way shape or form. They did get me higher pay there ($9.35/hour part time with full benefits), so that wasn't too bad especially for a college student.



At American Airlines, if a particular mechanic was needed for overtime, anyone and everyone above him on the seniority list would have to be atleast contacted and offered the overtime. If they accepted the offered overtime, they basically sat on a bench all day while the one guy that was needed worked. This of course meanth taht the airline paid 6-7 people overtime for one person to work. And you wonder why an airline hasn't made a profit in 20 years.



Unions are not good for business. They amount to additional taxes on the companies. Unions forget that when they demand more from a company, that they are biting the hand that feeds them. If the company goes under due to labor issues, then what have the union member won? Unemployment?? Unions have effectivley forced many companies to overseas where labor is cheap. Look how well the steel industry and auto industry are doing in the US.



That said, there have been places that I have worked where I wished that a union was in place.



Unions are well passed their time. There are enough governmental, insurance and lawyer regulations and watchers around now to pretty well protect laborers. Unions only cost people their jobs.



Case in point:

-Teamsters tried to organize the butchers are wal-mart stores. Wal-mart closed down all their butchery shops and brought in out-sourced meats. All the butchers lost their jobs. Way to go!



Unions had their time. Now they are political organizations. Personally, I am cheering the teamsters and seiu on. The are splitting primarily on disagreements on the direction of the AFL-CIO in political and labor matters. Teamsters and SEIU want to focus on keeping jobs from going overseas and AFL-CIO wants Democrats in office. I can only hope that this is the beging of the end for labor unions and their power.



I am all for a National Right-To-Work policy.



I am stopping here to go watch the launch of the Space Shuttle.

 

[TomT]

I have been a union member for years. Like any organization, there are good ones and bad ones. Honest ones and corrupt ones. There are unions for blue color workers and unions for rich sports players and actors. Unions for professionals and unions for assembly workers. They are so diverse there is no way to make a generalized statement for or against them. Some have served their constituents well, some are responsible for people not having a job any longer. Some unions have gotten so big that, like political parties, they have lost touch with the common man. This is what happened in the AFL/CIO. Even though I am a part of that group, I can see their point and don't blame them a bit for parting.





[Broken External Image]:

 

[Tom Schindler]

Wal-Mart is a scumbag corporation. Putting the blame on the unions trying to organize Wal-Mart butchers causing them to loose thier job is plain wrong. The employees would never want to go union if they were treated fairly by Wal-Mart.



Wal-Mart does not give employees health benefits, and if they did, you would be better off on welfare. Wal-Mart fights the union movement tooth and nail. Thier low prices come at a high price. Most people don't care because it doesn't affect them.



Everyone BETER care before it affects them.





Tom