Two Large Unions Say They Are Leaving the A.F.L.-C.I.O.

[Nelson Atwell]

I drive past the local UAW office on the way to work. It is right across the street from the local GM plant. Oddly, the parking lot there is even MORE empty than the parking lot at the GM plant. The whole area looks like a ghost town. I expect an announcement any day that the plant is closed, because there are only around a dozen cars in the parking lot on any given day.



The unions can't be blamed entirely for the problems that GM is experiencing, because they have been building some UGLY and POOR quality vehicles lately, but I am sure the inefficiencies introduced by labor unions haven't helped them either as they try to compete with Toyota, Nissan, and Hyundai. Heck, GM is already selling rebadged Daewoo vehicles in the US in an attempt to bring in some profits. It might help them to eliminate the Buick and Pontiac nameplates, since I haven't known a person in the past ten years that actually owned one. Still, I doubt that change would make much difference in their bottom line.



Frankly, I think we won't see at least one of the big three in business ten years from now, if things keep going the way they are right now. In fact, by then the Chinese will be importing cars to the US, and we already know their labor costs are ridiculously low compared to ours. They'll price the big three right out of the market, if they can meet quality standards we expect in the US. The only real solution the big three has right now is to build their vehicles overseas where they are out of reach of US labor unions. The end result will be that more Toyotas, Nissans, and Hyundais will be built in the US than GM, Ford, and Chrysler vehicles. Pretty weird idea, huh?

 

[Tom Schindler]

One of the biggest downfalls of the big three is that the Japanese do not have any retirement accounts to contend with, towns give them gigantic tax breaks to built a plant in thier community, and many employees are temporary help so the Japanese do not have to pay benefits.



As for the big three being around another 10 years, they will be there. I am not worried about it. The Japanese need to worry about the Chinese.



Just because GM is using Daewoo cars to as Nelson said "to bring in some profits", I got one question. Ever hear of a Ford Festiva? It was built in Korea by some little known company, at the time, called Kia.



Mazda was helping Kia by sharing a platform. The Kia Pride, Mazda 121, and Ford Festive. The original Kia Sephia was actually a Mazda Protege.



GM needs to build a little car to offset the Corvette's MPG. GM has always tried to build a "micro" car. They had the Chevy Sprint (Suzuki Swift), Geo Metro (I forget who made that one, but I am thing Suzuki), now the Chevy Aveo.



That is nothing new.





Tom

 

[Dale Carter]

From an earlier message - You get "buddy deals". You like to golf with the owner of the company, I don't golf and I prefer to spend time with my family on my time off. You get the raises, the promotions, etc. I get to work for the same pay, year after year. "I am sorry, we just cant afford to give you a raise since I just got aa new Viper today and my wife needed a new Lexus. Her had 25,000 miles on it. I did not want her to drive something that could break down on her". It happens on a daily basis.



My question and response -

And what is wrong with that? If "Joe" is willing to invest the time with "The Boss" and "Tom" CHOOSES not to, then they each get their own rewards. Joe gets a bigger paycheck and Tom gets a better family relationship. Also a key word is "golf with the OWNER of the company". His company, he can do with the money whatever he wants to do with it, within the law of course. If Tom is so angry about the wife getting the new Lexus with the raise that he "deserved", he should go work for a more enlightened boss. What is that you say? He can't get another job? He doesn't have the skills or the balls to make the change? Whose fault is that?? If The Boss is such a fool and treats people so badly, he will be unable to hire and retain competent people because they CAN and DO go elsewhere.

 

[Dale Carter]

Regarding pensions. The ONLY safe retirement is one that YOU own, not one that is promised to you by any organizaton. That includes Social Security. Privately held investments (401k, IRA, mutual funds, real estate etc. etc.) are the only way to go. Just ask the 12,200 employees of United Airlines or employees or WorldCom and Healthsouth.



Of course, personal responsibility is out of the question these days.

 

[Tom Schindler]

Dale,



I should be getting raises based on merit and performance. I go to work on time, I do my job, and I go home. Why should my family have to suuffer because I choose to do my job. Unfortunatly, it isn't fair.



As for pension accounts, if it is promised to me, I expect to get it. Why offer it if you aren't going to give it to me. 401(k) is relativly new. Social Security is PAID for by you out of your own pocket. If I had a choice, I would not contribute. I would be better off investing it myself.



I can not for the life of me understand how easy people are willing to accept that Social Security might not pay back money that they paid into it. Are we that brainwashed into thinking that it is OK to just turn our heads and accept the fact that money was stolen out of our pockets.



Imagine a city taking property tax that SHOULD be used to fund schools, then start charging extra for your children to attend school. You want your child to have an education, you pay us $5,000.00 a year. Never mind the fact that property tax is suposed to pay for it. How about law enforcement and fire protection. You pay a monthy bill to have police patrol in your community. You pay state income tax, but the state sends you a bill to pay for those deadbeats in the legislature to pass laws.



How is it any different?



You pay into pension funds in exchange of extra money in your wages. Instead of making $20.00/hr, you only get $15.00 and a pension fund. Out of that $15.00, you pay income tax, state tax, local tax. SS, medicare, and any other deductions. Now you only make $11.00/hr.



Out of that $11.00/hr you pay sales tax on anything you purchase. You are able to bring home $440.00.week. Most people do not have enough money to invest into ANY retirement account, let alone a 401(k), if the company they work for even offers one.



We tend to look at our own situation and think everyone else is as fortunate as we are. Unfortunatly, not everyone is. Some have disabilities that do not allow them to earn the money you and I do. Some have children that are sick, such as a friend of mine. Her son has CP. He requires extensive medical treatment. She misses alot of work because of it. It is her responsibility to take care of her son. A deadbeat ex-husband that does not pay child support. She carries the brunt of everything.



Of course it is easy to stand back and say she needs to invest into an IRA and prepare for the future, but with limited money and extensive medical bills, it is next to impossible to invest anything. Medicare does not provide alot of things she needs to take care of him. Those come out of the money she makes, when she is able to work. He son spend over 120 days in the hospital last year. So far this year, it has been something like 60 days.



Companies that back out of pension plans are scum. I will do everything in my power to not support those people. I am doing my part to protect the American Worker.



As long as we stand back and say "Whatever you want is fine with me" the worse off we will be in 20 years.





Tom

 

[Ray McIntireJr]

Say what you want about the corruption in Unions, but there is a time when every employer takes advantage of their employees and said employees just get bulldozed over and for any of several reasons nothing is done about it. If the corruption could be taken out, wouldn't it be nice to have someone that would stand up for you against an overbearind boss or bosses!?!:angry:

 

[John Mastrocco]

Dale said:

Regarding pensions. The ONLY safe retirement is one that YOU own, not one that is promised to you by any organizaton. That includes Social Security. Privately held investments (401k, IRA, mutual funds, real estate etc. etc.) are the only way to go. Just ask the 12,200 employees of United Airlines or employees or WorldCom and Healthsouth.

And what does that say about businesses these days? They make promises to the workers and have no qualms at all about breaking those promises.



A retirement fund should be required by law to be fully funded at all times. A company should not be able to borrow against it or spend it or underfund it. It should be fully insured by the company. And in the event of a bankruptcy, that fund should be untouchable and the commitment to the employee should come ahead of every other debt the bankrupt company has incurred.



BTW: Even your own retirement account isn't safe. There is no guarantee the money will still be there when you retire.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

This is a free and capitalist society. Any company that bulldozes it's employees will eventually fail. Look at United Airlines. They default on their pension plan. Employees are up in arms about it. They keep demanding pay concesions.... how much longer will people keep working there?



I will agree that there are good unions and bad ones. The norm tends to lean towards the bad side IN MY OPINION. I would not work for a company that gave the CEO's wife a Lexus and didn't bother to reward those who helped the company afford to give her a Lexus. The company I am at right now just got done with a VERY hard year. I did my part, performed better than expected. I should get a raise, however, I am not guarenteed one nor is it my right to have one. My paycheck comes from the board of directors. Should they not see fit to give raises, that's there problem as I will begin looking for a new job.



It's is my economics education speaking, but I do beleive that Social Insecurity will NEVER go bankrupt. It's too big a political game. As I've said before, the politicans who pass the bill to forever fully-fund Social Insecurity will be looked at as heros by way too many people. I just want to stop paying it to them and be able to invest it myself. So far this year, I have paid in nearly $1,500. That would mean that I could have paid in roughly $3000 by the end of the year, I have been at this company for three years, that's nearly $9k. If you assume that Social Security MAY pay 2% (if we're lucky), that same $9k will ber worth $17,300 when I hit 60 (I am 27). If I were to invest that same amount on my own I could expect AT LEAST 6% long term.... $61565.... Hmmmm.... It's pretty bad when even a 3 month CD pays better than Social Insecurity.



I do have a 401(k) plan that my company matches upto 4% of my pay (if I put in 5% or more). That's basically getting $90 free every two weeks.



Back to Unions....



When the teamsters struck at UPS in 96-97, the people that were on the lines were the ones that were hurt. They got paid out of a strike fund that they paid into (kinda like SS in my opinion) which amounted to around half of theor regular paychecks. At the same time, Jimmy Hoffa Jr. still had his glamerous office and cars. Still got paid millions. Gave a few speeches. Maybe picked one line or so. But he and the rest of the Union bosses didn't take a pay cut, didn't pay any of the other strikers. It din not affect their personal income in any way shapre or form. It may have infact increased it as they were able to show UPS "who's boss".



I will agree Wal-Mart is a hard-ass. My company sells equipment to them. Wal-mart is not a bad company. Tell me how you feel that they are "bad". They are experts at using capitalism. They are experts as efficiency. For every "mom and pop" shop that cloes due to Wal-mart, two more start (either to provide comsumer items to Wal-mart, open up next to a Wal-Mart store or open to support one of these others). If a mom-and-pop store shuts down because they can't compete, that's capitalism. Where I live there are two walmarts, a K-mart, a Sam's CLub, Kroeger, opening in Spetember is a Target, JC Penny, Dillards, Sears, and many many others (and this town has a poulation of on 60k). Wal-mart provides hundreds of jobs at their stores either directly or indirectly.



Where are they REQUIRED to provide health care? Where is UPS, or Applebee's, or Julie's Bakery REQUIRED to provide health care? The ONLY thing that companies are REQUIRED to do is keep their employees safe, pay their employees at least minimum wage, file tax forms, report earnings, and the other incidental legal and ethical responcibilities. If Wal-MArt wanted to pay everyone working there $5.35/hour for 40 hour weeks, that would be their perogative. They probably wouldn't find many quality workers at that rate. They want the best at the lowest cost. So do I. I shop almost exclusively at Wal-Mart. They<

 

[John Mastrocco]

Walmart is the proverbial 500 pound gorilla. They are not a good example of capitalism at work, but a great example of how to bully your suppliers, dominate your employees and dictate to customers what they will buy (by only carrying the brands they can sell cheaper than the competition.)



Does a company owe an employee anything? Nope. But then don't expect your employees to owe you anything either. It's a two-way street and, IMO, the quality of employee at Walmart is mostly low.



Personally I am the exact opposite of R. Shek - I AVOID Walmart whenever possible.



But I do agree with Shek about the way too many of the large union bosses never share in the consequences to the employees. They, like the corporate execs, always get theirs regardless of what happens to the employee/stock holders. I have said for years the local employees need to take back the union from the fat cats that are ruining it. They can do it, but like most things are complacent and stick with the status quo rather than try to make change.

 

[Dale Carter]

Hell has frozen over because I agree with everything R Shek said. HAHAHAHA:lol:



Rocco - How does Wal Mart dictate to customers when there are other places to buy the same goods at almost the sale price? Tell me how they "dominate" employees? Based on the experience of many friends, they pay you what they say they will pay you and offer work hours as they see fit, all of which is agreed to by the employee. Bully suppliers? They say what they will pay and the suppliers agrees or doesn't. Sounds like the epitome of free market capitalism to me. We do agree about the disconnect between unon bosses and the rank an file. It mirrors the disconnects between CEO and the unions, politicians and constituents, etc etc.





People cry about WalMart putting the Mom and Pop out of business, forgetting that WalMart WAS a Mom and Pop. They just do it better than EVERYONE else. They also forget that Mom and Pop are unemployed now becsue the people who decry WalMart stopped shopping with Mom and Pop.



I work for a national company and have a few key competitors. My only national competitor charges very high prices and my customers complain about how high the prices are and how lousy the service is at Brand X. My response is always the same, "I would take you more seriously if you weren't wearing their swag hat and buying product from them. If you hate them so much, come buy only from me". The fact is that they have what the customer wants and more power to them for running their business as they see fit. It is the American way.

 

[Gerald Pierce]

I look at it like this.... you want to work, get a job. You know what the benefits are, if you want more, get a better job.



BTW, WalMart does offer medical..... I know folks that work there that have it.

 

[Chad Merry]

I have been around unions all my life, Auto,elec,mech,iron,etc,etc All I have seen is protection for lazy people. It sucks paying dues so some other useless turd can sit and do nothing. And the when he gets confronted "says I am union you cant touch me". When we built our restaraunt (francise) they suggested union builders and I just laughed at him and said fine if you are paying the extra money for a normal work load, and you are going to make sure their work conditions are cold or warm enough for them work, otherwise they leave. They told me I would be picketed by the unions if I dont use them. I told him I dont care, they will leave in a couple days because no one cares about their complaint. Plus that drives up sales people love crossing picket lines.:lol: