Josh Langel
Well-Known Member
What? Obviously your ant-american, racist, and a martian. But then again, what do I know?
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U.S. reimbursing holocaust survivors for
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Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
Stop picking on Martians. You're making me very, very angry. Keep it up an I'll blast you with my Illudium Q-36 Explosive Space Modulator. 
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Josh Langel
Well-Known Member
CRAP! FORGOT!!! Sorry nelson!!!! I guess your not alone over there :lol:
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Nelson Atwell
Well-Known Member
:lol:
Shawn Hennessy
Active Member
It is apparent that you don't know much about this. At least not enough to speak intelligently. But, since you resort to that same mantra..."if you don't believe like I do, you must be anti-American."
If someone stole from you do you expect us to believe that you'd simply say, "oh, I should just forget about it and move on." You'd demand justice. Especially if you knew (and could prove) who stole from you. How can you expect anything less of other people?
"Oh yeah, we saved your lives...you should be grateful that we are keeping your personal valuables. You should appreciate us. Besides, you were oven-fodder...you wouldn't have needed your property if you were reduced to a pile of ashes...so screw you you ungrateful kikes!"
Liberal whack-jobs.
Tabjo
Active Member
DiveTrac, just trying to understand your previous statements, and please correct me if I am wrong as I would hate for you throw any more anti-semitic accusations around...
Reparations for Hungarian Jews...okay. Regardless of the countless American soldiers' lives lost during WWII.
Reparations for black American descendants of slaves...not okay? Because this was already paid by countless union soldiers' lives in the Civil War.
Reparations for Hungarian Jews...okay. Regardless of the countless American soldiers' lives lost during WWII.
Reparations for black American descendants of slaves...not okay? Because this was already paid by countless union soldiers' lives in the Civil War.
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Josh Langel
Well-Known Member
Oh DiveTrac... I think your a bit too personal on this. Take a breather.
Oh, and thanks for letting me know I forgot to type the "i" in "anti". I must have totally threw you off with that.
Pizza and Potatoes taste good too.
Oh, and I don't wish to be called a racist or ant-semitic, YOU are using such words, not me.:wacko
Sorry, but you were the one calling me the names and labeling me racist and anti-semitic. But thats okay, because I guess you forgot about that, or did it just sound better for you to use that line against me since I didn't share the same "compation" as you do?
Oh, and thanks for letting me know I forgot to type the "i" in "anti". I must have totally threw you off with that.
Pizza and Potatoes taste good too.
Oh, and I don't wish to be called a racist or ant-semitic, YOU are using such words, not me.:wacko
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Shawn Hennessy
Active Member
Tabjo,
Not my implication. Two different cases. US soldiers pilfered (i.e. stole) treasures captured from Nazi Germany. This property was stolen from millions of Jews who were either killed or interned. Upon their liberation, instead of the US returning the property to the liberated survivors, they <i>allowed</i> the pilfered treasure to be kept by the soldiers. None was recovered and so, subsequently none was returned.
Had the War Department conducted a thorough investigation and held the theif-soldiers accountable to return the property, we wouldn't be dealing with this lawsuit.
The slave issue is different. This nation was divided over the slave issue from the very beginning (Constitution). It took considerable time to come to an agreement about how to bring the states together in a union at a time when they were vulnerable from an attack from the Brits or just outright failure due to the division. Instead they reached an agreement (Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson both wrote that it was temporary until it could be <i> addressed</i> at a later time...thinking that slavery would die of natural causes) that would unite us and get this country solidified.
Some 8o years later, it all came to a head as the nation did divide. Slaves even fought for their freedom. It was a brutally fought war. Millions of Americans died. In the end, the slaves were freed. Nothing was taken from them. In fact, they gained their dignity. Some ex-slaves returned to Africa and started their own nation...were given free passage, paid by the US Government.
Where reparations need to be paid is for those who lost their battles with racism. If one was denied public access, the right to vote, general civil liberties...then they are entitled.
But just because one's ancestor was a slave, doesn't mean reparations should be paid 6 generations henceforth.
My own ancestors were removed from their land by Andrew Jackson and shoved into the wastelands of Oklahoma. Thousands died along the way. Many more died at the hands of the locals (Commanche) as the Cherokee were all but done with warring by the time they were relocated. I ask for no reparations.
The two aren't the same. I was just trying to nip that argument in the bud...perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Not my implication. Two different cases. US soldiers pilfered (i.e. stole) treasures captured from Nazi Germany. This property was stolen from millions of Jews who were either killed or interned. Upon their liberation, instead of the US returning the property to the liberated survivors, they <i>allowed</i> the pilfered treasure to be kept by the soldiers. None was recovered and so, subsequently none was returned.
Had the War Department conducted a thorough investigation and held the theif-soldiers accountable to return the property, we wouldn't be dealing with this lawsuit.
The slave issue is different. This nation was divided over the slave issue from the very beginning (Constitution). It took considerable time to come to an agreement about how to bring the states together in a union at a time when they were vulnerable from an attack from the Brits or just outright failure due to the division. Instead they reached an agreement (Ben Franklin and Thomas Jefferson both wrote that it was temporary until it could be <i> addressed</i> at a later time...thinking that slavery would die of natural causes) that would unite us and get this country solidified.
Some 8o years later, it all came to a head as the nation did divide. Slaves even fought for their freedom. It was a brutally fought war. Millions of Americans died. In the end, the slaves were freed. Nothing was taken from them. In fact, they gained their dignity. Some ex-slaves returned to Africa and started their own nation...were given free passage, paid by the US Government.
Where reparations need to be paid is for those who lost their battles with racism. If one was denied public access, the right to vote, general civil liberties...then they are entitled.
But just because one's ancestor was a slave, doesn't mean reparations should be paid 6 generations henceforth.
My own ancestors were removed from their land by Andrew Jackson and shoved into the wastelands of Oklahoma. Thousands died along the way. Many more died at the hands of the locals (Commanche) as the Cherokee were all but done with warring by the time they were relocated. I ask for no reparations.
The two aren't the same. I was just trying to nip that argument in the bud...perhaps I wasn't clear enough.
Josh Langel
Well-Known Member
I do say, though, that the American Indian is the only true "American".
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Shawn Hennessy
Active Member
Oh...ok Josh. You're right. I was using those words.
Anyway, I have personally seen the distruction caused by the Nazis on my own (wife's) family. It was horrible. To see that US servicemen stole from them after they had been through an unbelievable hell was intolerable.
Repayment of what was stolen by the soldiers is adequate.
I am not avocating footing the bill for what the Germans, Swiss or Vichy France did. That is their burden to bear. No one is screaming at Russia yet....they killed more Jews than the Nazis did.
Anyway, I have personally seen the distruction caused by the Nazis on my own (wife's) family. It was horrible. To see that US servicemen stole from them after they had been through an unbelievable hell was intolerable.
Repayment of what was stolen by the soldiers is adequate.
I am not avocating footing the bill for what the Germans, Swiss or Vichy France did. That is their burden to bear. No one is screaming at Russia yet....they killed more Jews than the Nazis did.
Shawn Hennessy
Active Member
I really don't think you're a racist, btw. My aplogies to you.
I do think that people need to be more informed before they speak about subjects...especially something like this.
I do think that people need to be more informed before they speak about subjects...especially something like this.
Josh Langel
Well-Known Member
DiveTrac,
I am sorry for what your wife's family endured during those dark times. I can't say I feel their pain, but I do sympathize for them. I visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C., and yes, I was disgusted by what I saw.
I guess I just see it from a person who has heard stories from a grandfather and read countless articles about our good service men, so this story churned my anger (and confusion).
But I do agree, if something is stolen, then it should be reimbursed ... but I think that WWII was a unique event and time, in which the whole world was in shambles, thats why I never saw it as evil or wrong as it is.
Sorry for the confusion and if I offended you or your wife's family.
Josh
I am sorry for what your wife's family endured during those dark times. I can't say I feel their pain, but I do sympathize for them. I visited the Holocaust Museum in D.C., and yes, I was disgusted by what I saw.
I guess I just see it from a person who has heard stories from a grandfather and read countless articles about our good service men, so this story churned my anger (and confusion).
But I do agree, if something is stolen, then it should be reimbursed ... but I think that WWII was a unique event and time, in which the whole world was in shambles, thats why I never saw it as evil or wrong as it is.
Sorry for the confusion and if I offended you or your wife's family.
Josh
My grandfather was in a Russian POW camp. The things he has seen would make your blood curdle.
My mother is from Germany. Many people in her family were killed in concentration camps. It wasn't only the Jews. They just seem to be the ones that complain the most.
While I do disagree with the reimbursment of the Jews for items that were stolen, I do feel those that were responsible for it should be punished.
What does "America" owe the Native American for taking of thier land? The Native American race is all but extinct. There are very few 100% Native American's left. Taking of personal belongings such as jewelery is minimal compared to the taking of ones land and lives to the point of extinction. FWIW, in no way am I putting down Native Americans or anyone that is a decendent of any Native American Tribe. IMO, they are the real victims.
What am I? 50% German and 50% Swiss.
Tom
My mother is from Germany. Many people in her family were killed in concentration camps. It wasn't only the Jews. They just seem to be the ones that complain the most.
While I do disagree with the reimbursment of the Jews for items that were stolen, I do feel those that were responsible for it should be punished.
What does "America" owe the Native American for taking of thier land? The Native American race is all but extinct. There are very few 100% Native American's left. Taking of personal belongings such as jewelery is minimal compared to the taking of ones land and lives to the point of extinction. FWIW, in no way am I putting down Native Americans or anyone that is a decendent of any Native American Tribe. IMO, they are the real victims.
What am I? 50% German and 50% Swiss.
Tom
Cliff R
Member
Not to justify what was done but, I beleive the soldiers in question did not look at it as taking from "oven fodder" but as taking from the Nazi's. When this train taken over I believe the troops thought that they were taking from the enemy. Doesn't make it right, but I feel that they didn't act as common thieves.
Cliff
Cliff
John Mastrocco
Active Member
Cliff,
The US Government does not agree with you. The USA has forbidden 'looting' by US soldiers for quite some time and when a soldier steals propery that was being held by an enemy, be it public or provate, there are specific regulations that cover what to do with that property. ("Common" theft has a different set of regulations.) But it is still considered theft. The property did not belong to the soldiers, so it was not theirs to take.
The link below is the current UCMJ regulations on the subject. I believe it is relatively unchanged for the 20th Century.
People can always make excuses as to why they (or someone else) didn't act appropriately. I see a lot of people that complain about a lack of responsibility, then say this isn't right. If US Soldiers are acting contrary to orders and taking what does not belong to them, looting/theft, the US Government is responsible for those actions as the soldiers were/are representatives of the US Government. The Government agreed and also agreed to pay for those actions. IMO, the next step, pursuant to any relevant statute of limitations, is for the Government to find the soldiers that stole the property, if possible, and hold them responsible as well.
The US Government does not agree with you. The USA has forbidden 'looting' by US soldiers for quite some time and when a soldier steals propery that was being held by an enemy, be it public or provate, there are specific regulations that cover what to do with that property. ("Common" theft has a different set of regulations.) But it is still considered theft. The property did not belong to the soldiers, so it was not theirs to take.
The link below is the current UCMJ regulations on the subject. I believe it is relatively unchanged for the 20th Century.
People can always make excuses as to why they (or someone else) didn't act appropriately. I see a lot of people that complain about a lack of responsibility, then say this isn't right. If US Soldiers are acting contrary to orders and taking what does not belong to them, looting/theft, the US Government is responsible for those actions as the soldiers were/are representatives of the US Government. The Government agreed and also agreed to pay for those actions. IMO, the next step, pursuant to any relevant statute of limitations, is for the Government to find the soldiers that stole the property, if possible, and hold them responsible as well.
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Ryan Schaecher
Well-Known Member
I just wish that my grandfather had gotten a hold of a few German Lugers and Mausers before he came back. At the time, it was seemingly A-OK to return to the states with war trophy's like officer's medals, uniform parts, sidearms, etc. The difference here is soldier vs soldier, government property vs government property not soldier vs citizen or private individual.
If we pay this $25.5 million, are we going to be done with it or are the families going to come back in another 50 years and want another $50 million because the bombing of Germany destroyed their homes (which we rebuilt under the Marshall Plan) or other personal property? Where will it end?
The US Government has done a lot of shady things in the past, but so has every goernment on the planet at one point or another. Ancient Rome did it, Egypt under the Pharohs did it, Russia has done it since their existance began, France has done it. We have done it. It's a sad tale in the history of any country. But unless the damage was done within the current lifetime, I have a hard time accepting the need to "repay" those.
I feel the pain for the families that lost their history, their heirlooms from generations before. I am one of you. I have a grandmother who came here from Ireland when she was 3 years old. Adopted by her Aunt. We have no information of anysort of her family. On my dad's side, my great-great grandparents came here from Germany (i believe in the 1870's or so). All the history of my family before this point has since been destroyed (or atleast hidden away out of pubic records).
I have a hard time sending money in reparations for anyone since none of my lineage has ever held slaves in this country, never been in the government that forced the Trail of Tears march or the internment of the Japanese.
It's unfortunate that the ego of man casues such pain. In days of old, Whites thought they were superior, Blacks thought they were superior, Natives thought they were superior. It occurs with Religion as well. There are several religions the believe that if you are not one of them, you will spend eternity separated from God. It all goes back to ego and intolerance. Unfortuneate at best.
If we pay this $25.5 million, are we going to be done with it or are the families going to come back in another 50 years and want another $50 million because the bombing of Germany destroyed their homes (which we rebuilt under the Marshall Plan) or other personal property? Where will it end?
The US Government has done a lot of shady things in the past, but so has every goernment on the planet at one point or another. Ancient Rome did it, Egypt under the Pharohs did it, Russia has done it since their existance began, France has done it. We have done it. It's a sad tale in the history of any country. But unless the damage was done within the current lifetime, I have a hard time accepting the need to "repay" those.
I feel the pain for the families that lost their history, their heirlooms from generations before. I am one of you. I have a grandmother who came here from Ireland when she was 3 years old. Adopted by her Aunt. We have no information of anysort of her family. On my dad's side, my great-great grandparents came here from Germany (i believe in the 1870's or so). All the history of my family before this point has since been destroyed (or atleast hidden away out of pubic records).
I have a hard time sending money in reparations for anyone since none of my lineage has ever held slaves in this country, never been in the government that forced the Trail of Tears march or the internment of the Japanese.
It's unfortunate that the ego of man casues such pain. In days of old, Whites thought they were superior, Blacks thought they were superior, Natives thought they were superior. It occurs with Religion as well. There are several religions the believe that if you are not one of them, you will spend eternity separated from God. It all goes back to ego and intolerance. Unfortuneate at best.
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Caymen, you're wrong about there being very few 100% Native Americans left. There are hundreds of millions of them, including me. I was born in this country, raised in this country, and have never lived anyplace else--this is my native country, and thus I am a Native American.
As for the the groups that I realize that you're talking about when you use the inaccurate term "Native American", I honestly feel we, the American people, don't owe them anything in terms of reparations. We didn't take anything from them. Our ancestors took from their ancestors. When someone commits a crime, you punish them, not their children, or their children's children. All we owe to them is an equal opportunity to try to make it in this world--something that, thanks to racist government policies that give those groups of people significantly more rights than the rest of us receive, has been more than provided.
As for the the groups that I realize that you're talking about when you use the inaccurate term "Native American", I honestly feel we, the American people, don't owe them anything in terms of reparations. We didn't take anything from them. Our ancestors took from their ancestors. When someone commits a crime, you punish them, not their children, or their children's children. All we owe to them is an equal opportunity to try to make it in this world--something that, thanks to racist government policies that give those groups of people significantly more rights than the rest of us receive, has been more than provided.
I did not take anything from the Jews. The US government did not steal from the Jews. We should not have to pay a dime.
What should one call the Native Americans? American Indians, even though the reason they were called Indians is because Columbus thought he was in India. Should we call them the Red's much like we call those that are decendents from Africa "Blacks"?
Tom
What should one call the Native Americans? American Indians, even though the reason they were called Indians is because Columbus thought he was in India. Should we call them the Red's much like we call those that are decendents from Africa "Blacks"?
Tom
Bill V
Well-Known Member
Caymen--I'm not sure. I agree that "American Indian" isn't the right term--it's as incorrect in not applying to them as the term "Native American" is in not being exclusive to them. I think "Indigenous" would be better than "Native", but even that's questionable, as most experts agree that those races migrated here from Asia. Maybe the best is to simply call them the names of each tribe--Chippewa, Ojibwe, Sioux, Cherokee, Seminole, etc.
Speaking of which--there were some awful atrocities commited by some tribes against other tribes, long before any white man ever saw the western hemisphere. Should restitution be made there?
Speaking of which--there were some awful atrocities commited by some tribes against other tribes, long before any white man ever saw the western hemisphere. Should restitution be made there?
