U.S. reimbursing holocaust survivors for

[Shawn Hennessy]

Generally, most nations describe themselves as American Indians.



<a href="http://www.indians.org/" target="_blank">http://www.indians.org/</a>



I think that some of you are getting it afterall. Being of Cherokee lineage, I don't agree with the whole casino thing. I have trouble with the fishing rights. But, take a drive out to a reservation where Indians are <i>allowed</i> to maintain some way of life and you will see how our programs have helped them (not).



You see nations with no spirit left...they have been defeated and still are defeated. The government stole everythign from them and continued to do so well into the 20th century. Indians have never gained any real societal status. On my daily bus ride into work, I hear the people commenting as we pass the Casinos (Puyallup Nation), saying that the "Indians should have been wiped out in the 1800's" or that "they should be paying us to stay here."



Caymen...the US govenrment did steal from the Jews, albeit after the Nazis stole from them. Otherwise, we wouldn't be paying this.



Rocco and R Shek are correct. Theft is theft. I have a rather large collection of Nazi uniform items, daggers, medals, bayonettes, flags, stationary (from Martin Bormann), etc. that my uncle (OSA) libertated from Berchtesgarden in '45. He took no personal belongings, no paintings, no silver, nothing. He was very clear on who that belonged to.



Btw...the US governement first learned of the concentration camps in 1939 (via spies) and presented it to FDR. He did nothing.

 

[Curtis F]

So basically the thought is to wipe your hands, say your sorry, everything is better now and move on???



Slavery may have ended a hundred years ago but the hatred and segregation continued long after that. We're talking about at most one to two generations ago where it was illegal to drink from the same fountains or attend the same schools. The impact didn't end when slavery or segregation ended. It will take generations before black Americans 'catch up' if that's even a possibility. And when I write 'catch up' I'm not talking about from an intellectual standpoint but rather from a property, business, networth stand point and most likely where the 40 acre and a mule slogan started.

 

[Shawn Hennessy]

Slavery may have ended a hundred years ago

Actually...it was 142 years ago.



And, yes...move on. Do you expect that racism will be eliminated by legislation? I don't understand the nature of your question.



We are talking about reparations, not fixing racism (which is a social issue...not a financial one). How do you deal with that? Do you legistlate that every black person gets to take a white person's home? Do you legislate that every black person gets to take a white person's job? I don't follow. Could you clairfy?



This is about repaying a theft that occured not too long ago in our history.

 

[Curtis F]

I'm not talking about fixing racism. Like you wrote, that's a social issue. What I'm saying is the impact that racism, slavery, etc has had on black Americans. The social issue led to real barriers that were inacted by legislation. It has had a ripple effect through the generations in terms of economic advancement and development. The ability to buy land, get jobs, start businesses, etc were denied. Are you saying that's not a theft in itself???

 

[Shawn Hennessy]

Yes...it is not theft.



That is the denial of civil rights. Not the same as theft (under the law)...but in theory it is theft of a civil right.



Reimbursement for that is punishment for the denier...and the assurance of the civil right.



Society must change for correction of those ills you speak of. The law (i.e. Constitution) guarantees these rights. If an individual denies those to others...then the law needs to be enforced. Sometimes, when the breakage causes financial damage to the denyee, then they can seek damages on an individual basis. That is also different then paying some sort of reparation.



We need to rise above racism. Those who are oppressed need to pick themselves up and do something for themselves. Fight. Don't sit back and play the blame game.



Getting back to the original topic...



The Hungarian Jews a right in seeking financial damages from the incident with the train.

 

[Curtis F]

DiveTrac,



I'm not for one saying you play the blame game and sit back and do nothing. Black Americans for decades have been fighting and a lot of progress has been made. At the same

time, one shouldn't lose sight of why there is a struggle and why some are at a disadvantge. Black Americans have overcome a lot despite the barriers, hurdles, and obstacles.



When one is deprived of their civil rights, the harm that is done is much greater than the simple theft of property. Theft of property is easy to pay for but quantifying a value on a race who weren't allowed the same civil rights is obviously quite difficult to do.



No sense in arguing these points but we do disagree.

 

[TrainTrac]

Soo... Does anyone living in the South that can trace their lineage back to the War Between the States have a case for seeking financial damages from the Federal gov't? The Union Army pillaged, plundered, stole, and destroyed a lot of private property in the South. Take Sherman's March for example... Where do you draw the line with this whole "reparations/damages" issue?



I think what happened in Europe was wrong, but making a case against individuals would be extremely difficult after this much time, especially seeing as how many of the soldiers directly involved are now dead. To go after the U.S. gov't was a much easier case, because for the U.S. gov't to refuse this would be a P/R and political suicide.



And I'm not exactly sure if the War Dept or U.S. gov't had any regulations or laws against plunder during WWII, but the UCMJ wasn't enacted until 1951.



By the way... I can't recall if Japan has ever issued an apology for Pearl Harbor, or for all the atrocities they committed in the various countries they conquered, or have they paid financial damages to any of the persons whose personal property their soldiers may have stolen during WWII?:huh:

 

[Shawn Hennessy]

Andy H Wrote:

By the way... I can't recall if Japan has ever issued an apology for Pearl Harbor, or for all the atrocities they committed in the various countries they conquered, or have they paid financial damages to any of the persons whose personal property their soldiers may have stolen during WWII?

That is an excellent point. The massacre at Nanking. I wonder how the Japanese could ever repay for the outright horror they waged on the Chinese.



An exerpt from a personal account:

During his eight days of field research in Nanking, Ishikawa got acquainted with the soldiers from the 33rd Infantry Regiment of the 16th Division. Soon Ishikawa came up with a story featuring a fictional platoon whose march toward Nanking was clearly based on the unit.



Unlike many heroic characters appearing in general wartime stories and news articles in Japan, in Ishikawa's Ikiteiru Heitai [Living Soldiers] the main characters such as Privates Hirao and Kondo, Sergeant Kasahara, and Second Lieutenant Kurata, were absorbed in the reality of war. They engaged in whimsical killings, looting, rape, and arson throughout their march. The following passage is one of those fickle acts his characters often commit in the story:



Hirao grabbed her by the collar and pulled her up, but she didn't let go of the dead body of her mother until one of the soldiers twisted her arm and pulled the body away. The soldiers hauled the girl outside, her legs dragging on the ground.



Hirao screamed like a madman, raised his bayonet and stabbed the girl in the chest three times. The other soldiers also took their daggers and began stabbing her head, abdomen, and other parts indiscriminately.



She was dead within ten seconds. When she collapsed like a futon [pile of bedclothes] onto the dark ground, the warm smell of fresh blood wafted up to the flushed faces of the excited soldiers.



In the trench Second Lieutenant Kurata was aware of what was going on but did not say a word. When the excited soldiers came back to the trench spitting, Sergeant Kasahara was sitting cross-legged on the bottom of the trench smoking. He muttered with a detectable smile on his lips, "What a waste, indeed!"

The only thing to come out of the mouths of wack-job liberals is that the Americans dropped two nuclear weapons on innocent people.



Between December 1937 and March 1938 at least 369,366 (more than the total who were killed from the A-Bombs combined) Chinese civilians and prisoners of war were slaughtered by the invading troops. An estimated 80,000 women and girls were raped; many of them were then mutilated or murdered.



THE SAVAGERY OF THE KILLING WAS AS APPALLING AS ITS SCALE.



Thousands of victims were beheaded, burned, bayoneted, buried alive, or disemboweled.



To this day the Japanese government has refused to apologize for these and other World War II atrocities, and a significant sector of Japanese society denies that they took place at all.



Reparations? Nope.



Americans are held to a higher standard by the world and by ourselves...and we should be.

 

[Ryan Schaecher]

I can't recall if Japan has ever issued an apology for Pearl Harbor,

Point taken and made well, except that Japan did issue an appology just recently (I think it may have been this year on the anniversary of V-J day).



Just a side note.... continuing discussion...





Punishing the child for the sins of the father is wrong in any case, way, shape or form. If I (God Help Me) deny civil rights to a person of another race or even my own, I will be help responcible. I am not responcible for what my father or grandfather have done in their lives unless I am directly involved and continue to do those same things today.