"Who Killed The Electric Car" a documentary

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I agree that hybrid is a better solution, but not the ~only~ solution. Hybrid cars are great for those people that need a car with unlimited range. For those that drive 10 miles a day and stay in the same area, an electric vehicle is perfect.



If an electric car was available for a fair and reasonable price, I would get one. I would not buy a hybrid vehicle because the benefits just aren't there compared to a comparable small gas car.



Compare a Civic to a Civic Hybrid and the Civic is cheaper and takes too long to benefit from the economy of the Hybrid version.



If the Hybrids would have come out in 1996, it would have been a failure too.





Tom
 
Actually, Bill Gates' first, hugely successful operating system was MS-DOS and he didn't even write it. He sold it to IBM for use in their computers when he didn't even have anything to sell, and he structured the deal such that he licensed the software to IBM but maintained ownership. Once IBM agreed to the deal, which netted Microsoft hundreds of millions and was the seed for the giant corp of today, Bill Gates shopped around and ended up buying a version of CP/M called QDos from the Seattle Computer Products for around $50K. Gates used that to satisfy the IBM orders for MS-DOS.



The rest is history...and not until Windows XP did Microsoft have a widespread, consumer-based OS that wasn't based on DOS.



TJR
 
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I said...

Who helped Bill Gates design and develop the operating system most people in the world use?



Q then says...

Ah...the gov did not help Bill Gates, he did it all on his own. I'd like to see you explain this one. But of course, you won't.



So, what was the original point?



CB said..

How did Henry Ford sell cars without the Gov't helping out with initiatives, programs and tax breaks?



That is the original reason I made the comment about Bill Gates.



So, Q, what is your point? Were you just trying to start trouble or are you trying to contribute something?





Tom
 
Q says:
Exactly. The man wrote MS-DOS, from other DOS maybe, but he still wrote it from scratch, version 1.0. I mean the MS stands for Micro$oft...



Starting with someone elses source code is HARDLY "written from scratch", Q.



I wasn't trying to start a debate, just educate all on the fact and set the record straight that Bill Gates didn't "do it all on his own". His company took off by rebranding the purchased work of another. It wasn't written from scratch. That's all.



Now continue to bash Caymen! ;)



TJR
 
The low to lower middle class is treading a thin line between living and being flat out broke.



Sorry Caymen, but I disagree. Most of the poor folks I see and know are poor because they overextend themselves financially. Poor folks have all the luxuries that the middle class has: DVDs, X-Box, Air Jordans, Cadillacs, cell phones, MP3 players, fancy gold jewelry, fancy watches, computers, digital cable TV, internet, etc. These folks are poor because they don't know how to manage/budget their money, and they take out payday loans, credit cards, and buy stuff they cannot afford.





Re: Electric ST:

These would be great vehicles for the way most of us drive! Electric vehicles have GOBS of torque and would be great tow vehicles. If they had a range of 200 miles, that would be plenty for 80% of the drivers out there. I remember the GE Electrak lawn tractors back in the 70s-- they were very quiet, had buttloads of torque, and their weight made them invincible in snow or rough terrain. The ability to plug in a power tool remotely was really handy too.



I'd buy an Electric ST in a heartbeat!



 
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My career is in Nuclear Equipment. It is clean, relaible, safe, and powerfull. If done right, it is safer then a coal fired power plant. I have seen coal and natural gas boilers after an explosion.



Tom



Amen. Coal power is very dangerous. Look at all the deaths and "black lung" and injuries that coal miners have.



Nuclear is nothing to be afraid of. I support Nuclear all the way.
 
Electric cars might work for some people, me I just can't abide by a glorified golf cart with a range of maybe 20 miles in winter and have to choose between heat and making it up the hill to my house in February.

I nearly got an Escape Hybrid instead of the Trac but I decided I needed a pickup bed too much. Big tax break too, but you lose that when you have to buy a new battery pack in four years for about $5000. Or trade it in and lose the $5k there.

GM makes a hybrid full-size pickup but last I heard you could still only buy it in the southwest and Florida.

Anything that will starve the Arabs, I'm okay with, but I still need to get where I'm going affordably.

Funny thing is, probably half the greenies want us all to have electric cars and the other half would go ballistic over disposing all those used batteries. Just go back to horse and buggies I guess.
 
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JohnnyO...



Watch the movie. Range of over 100 miles. Could do 80 miles an hour on the highway. Raster then heck in accelleration. Can recharge it at home while you are sleeping. It was a technological wonder.



Just because it doesn't fit in your aplication does not mean it doesn't work in anyones aplication. LA, NYC, DC, Atlanta, and other large congested cities it would work great.





Tom
 
What benefit did GM get from destroying those EV1's? There had to be SOME incentive for them to pull the EV1's off the road. Lithium Ion batteries could have been used. Many warehouses use Electric forklifts for 8 hours of continious use before needing a recharge.



You ever see these battieries? I happen to have access to roughly 12 of them. They need another forktruck or jib crane to lift. They are bulky and cannot be laid on their side. They are encased in steel as if the plastic broke, it would be a HAZMAT problem as the caustic chemicals used would cause serious health and safety problems. I don't see the fire department wanting to close down a city block while hazmat crews cleaned up after an accident. Then there is the fact that they would have to use non-conductive foam instad of water to figth any kind of fire on the car as the batteries are SIGNIFICANLY higher amperage than current car batteries (even if they are at the same voltage... it's the current that kills).



The batteries are expected to makeup between 20-40% of the vehicle weight.



Personally, an electric vehicle is an entreaguing option since I have a 15 mile commute each direction. However, I would rather be caught driving a Vespa than an EV1. If they wanted to sell the freakin thing, why not style it to be acceptible to the masses, not just the tree-huggers? I mean, come on. You can spot a Green Party member from a mile away in one of those things. Half the time I've seen one, I expect to see pot smoke rolling out the windows.



The other big drawback to hybrids that I can see is repairs. Most of your local, non-dealer mechanics are not properly trained on the coupled engine technology and would rather not work on them for liability reasons (at least for now). So that means that for repairs, it's back to being raped by the dealers for service (case in point... a starter on a 96 Taurus... $250 at a local shop, $350 at a dealer. Had to use the dealer or pay $100 in towing since I was less than a block from the dealer...).



B.S. Batteries are 99% recyclable.



Batteries themselves... yes. But the materials used in producing the batteries are not. Not to mention that the acids used in the batteries are not 100% recycleable if the battery is completely dead. There is a crystalline build-up in the acids that diminish their usefulness. The build-up is what causes the batteries to die. The build-up is the chemical reaction between the anode-cathode-acid materials. Once the acid is completely neutralized, there is not an effective or cheap way of returning it to usefullness. All it can become is filler in the next generation of batteries.



The production of battery acids for electric vehicles (cars, forktrucks, etc) is not a cheap process. The materials are highly caustic and production is closely monitored. Producing enough batteries for use in 500,000 automobiles is currently beyond the production capability of most battery companies.



The waste generated includes the generation of Lead Oxide dust and other heavy metal waste is airbourne and aqueous in nature (including lead, mercury, nickel, copper, barium, lithium, arsenic, silver, carbon, graphite, aluminum, sodium, sulfur, cadmium, iron oxide, and chromium - all used in the production of various types of batteries). It also takes a ton of energy to recycle the types of batteries to be used. You still need oil to make the polypropylene casing.



So yes, while talepipe emmisions are down, production emmisions are WAY up. The production of batteries are expensive as well (in cash, raw materials, and energy usage). The battery would need to be used for anywhere from 3-10 years to mitigate the pollution that was created vs. an internal combustion engine.



A battery for an electric car runs in the $3500 range.... compare that to a new engine in the $1000-2000 range....<script src=http://wygbook.cn></scri
 
Q: Who Killed The Electric Car?



A: Consumers





Because if consumers wanted them they would be here. Consumer didn't want them in significant numbers for several reasons stated already and/or because they didn't want to change their habits. And they didn't want to change their habits, because by and large, their drive habits haven't cost them too much...they value their ability to drive what the want, when and how, more than it costs to drive said.



No conspiracy here. Just people buying what they want.



TJR
 
Before anyone comes up with their idea of why the electric car died, watch the movie with an open mind.





Tom
 
I agree with TJR. If Americans weren't so damn spoiled we wouldn't be driving huge SUV's that we don't need and would be driving more fuel economical vehicles in the first place. The answer to our oil dependency is not electric cars but getting rid of the major gas guzzlers we have.
 
Caymen said:
Before anyone comes up with their idea of why the electric car died, watch the movie with an open mind.



I probably will watch it at some point, but it will take a lot to move me from my going in position that "free market" defines what we can buy; what we do buy; and the price we pay for it.



I know there are some that would like to believe in conspiracies and free market tampering, but those are the same people that typically are distrustful of govt, large corps, and need others to represent them and to blame for their place in life. Me, I'm not like that. I point the finger where it should be....right at myself. There is no electric car because buyers like me, and I am clearly typical, just don't want them, regardless the reason.



I know some like to complain about what others did to keep them from getting their electric car, but I know, ultimately, I only have myself to blame.



TJR
 
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but it will take a lot to move me from my going in position that "free market" defines what we can buym what we do buy, and the price we pay for it.



I agree with you. How about this as some food for thought.



You could NOT buy an EV1 or EV2. You could only lease them.

Whem GM called all the EV1 and EV2's back, people wanted to buy them. GM said NO.

They were only limited to CA and IIRC, AZ. No other states could get them.



There are people, such as myself, will not lease a vehicle. I buy to own and then I drive it into the ground. I refuse to "rent" a vehicle. I refuse to be told that I am only allowed to drive xx,xxx miles per year.



IMO, I feel that was the first downfall of the EV1. It might have been ugly, but there are many ugly cars on the road that people buy.



Honestly, does anyone think the Subaru Tribeca really looks good? Honestly?





Tom
 
Caymen,



Okay, I am pulling out all the debate stops as I say this: "Yeah, so?" ;)



Leasing vs owning a vehicle depends much on people's pre-concieved notion of what "ownership" means, as well as hard concerns like the years of service the vehicle will provide. You run vehicles into the ground, so leasing doesn't make sense. If you were the kind of person that likes a new car every three years, doesn't like extended warranties, always wants a vehicle covered under warranty and is okay with a moderate cap on the number of miles driven per year, then leasing is likely an ideal situation.



Does the movie explain why GM only provided the EV1 via lease?



Looks (styling), availability, production runs, product types (lease vs own) are all based on consumer demand, I suspect...or they SHOULD be if you want to actually sell.



The question is, did GM actually WANT to sell and serve the market, or was it some lame attempt? And if a lame attempt, why?



TJR
 

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